Bottlehead Forum
Bottlehead Kits => Legacy Kit Products => Crackheadphone => Topic started by: Doc B. on January 23, 2014, 11:05:13 AM
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Seems like the entry level headphone for Crack listening is something like a used HD600 for maybe $250 used. Would there be any interest in a kit that starts with a very bang for the buck good sounding headphone and modifies it with improved cabling, damping and electrical tweaking to optimize it for the Crack? Price might be in the $100-$150 range, including the headphones. Not saying it will stomp HD600s, but so far I'm pretty happy with our experiments and one nice advantage is the design has a closed back.
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Yes. Would also be cool if it worked well with the Quickie modded for 'phones.
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I'd be interested in a closed back set of phones, that's about my price point for new toys too.
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Sounds interesting can I pre order? A closed set of cans optimize for the Crack would make a great bedside rig ideal for relaxed late listening. My other half would be please about less leakage. A Headphone, Crack+Speedball bundle would be nice!
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I ordered some parts yesterday that should help me to see just how close I can get to what I have in mind. They should be here next week and we will get a little deeper into the project.
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Could such a kit could be ordered from something like a Chinese menu, say select the version from column "A" (set up for rock-n-roll = more slam), or from Column "B" (optimized for classical listening = genteel slam + greater extension), or maybe from Column "C" (for jazz listening or female vocals = extended dynamic range and a focus on the mids)?
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My plan is to develop the design to where it sounds the way I like, and in my experience you really want the same characteristics for all kinds of music. Certainly a person could take whatever we sell and modify it further to taste.
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Count me in as interested. I'd love a closed back alternative to my HD600s.
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Interesting to see what you guys come up with.
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I am interested as well!
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I'm in!
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I'm interested as well!
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I did some more experimentation regarding this project today, with damping and loading. While I need proud papa syndrome to wear off before I can make a useful comment about the sound, I think we may have something quite viable. Suffice it to say I was head bobbing and found myself putting the experimental cans on in place of HD800s without being terribly let down. The sound is different, but that is not necessarily a bad thing. In fact there were some things I liked better from the experiment than I was hearing from the 800s. Bear in mind this is specifically with Crack as the source. With Mainline I suspect the 800s would walk away from the experimental cans, as they are being tuned specifically for Crack.
We have a couple of different cable samples on the way and some plugs. That will be the next step in experimentation. There are also some different pads on order.
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I'd commit to a pre-order. That price range is well within my experimentation budget. I'm all about having fun listening to the music, don't really care if it doesn't measure flat.
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I would be interested. I got some Skullcandy headphones for Christmas and they have convinced me that I would like to use headphones but need something better, especially more comfortable.
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Got the guys to listen and opine, and did some further comparisons. Current conclusions are that the damping and loading mods really improve the already good bass and help to clean up the midrange so one can hear the decay of notes much more clearly. The top end still needs a bit of help, and the next set of experiments, with cabling, will be done with that in mind.
Whereas the modded cans were different but seemed to present a very favorable impression vs. Hd800s with both playing via crack, hd800s via mainline vs. the new cans on crack shows the 800/mainline combo still rules the roost by a good margin. If I can get the top end opened up a bit on the experimental cans the margin between them should narrow a bit.
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I'm a little confused as to how you can tune something specifically for the crack when there are so many variables that result from tube rolling? I'm interested in this project, but it seems that everyone should have the same tube compliment for this to work. or at least we need to know what tubes your using Doc!
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I'm a little confused as to how you can tune something specifically for the crack when there are so many variables that result from tube rolling?
Because most of the variables that interplay between an amplifier and speakers/headphones have less to do with the actual tubes used, and a lot more to do with the performance of the amplifier and the demands of the load.
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I am most curious to see what headphones are used and how you address the impedance issue. I'm definitely in for a preorder when available.
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When and if the experiment reaches a favorable conclusion we will share the details. Some parts ordering was slightly delayed but we should have parts for the next stage of experiments next week.
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This sounds really interesting, I will probably also preorder if it goes that far.
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Hmmm... a nice set of of closed back headphones for a cubicle warrior. You have my attention.
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I'd be interested in a kit like that as well
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I will be listening to the new cable design later today. Cross your fingers.
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Since there is no where for me to post this,
Says he who has his own forum.
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No interest at all.
Bought a new set of HD600's for $350. I'm done.
Never had a headphone rig, thought I'd try one out. The sound is amazing.
The other reason I bought it is as a reference. From all I've read Crack/Speedball/HD600 is as neutral as it gets. So that makes for a good reference. I really hate headphones. I want to listen to music that sounds that good w/o the clamp on my head. IE speakers. The headphone rig helped me with the speaker design - :)
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I'm not sure of the relevance of the last five posts to the subject matter of this thread. I'm pretty happy with the end result today. The headphones sound quite different than stock - more extension on both ends and much more punch. In fact these are some of the most punchy headphones I have heard. That quick transient attack is really pretty neat. We're gonna work out a few final details and then I think we will release what we have come up with.
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Hehe. I was responding to your original post - :)
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Very interested to see what you come up with, and if they have the same synergy as the HD600/Crack everybody raves about i'm sure they will be a great success.
I doubt they will interest me personally though, especially if they are anything like the Sennheisers. I have the 650's and just don't like them, i've tried time and time, respect them, just cant love them.
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These really aren't anything like Sennheisers in terms of construction so I don't know that experience with that sound will help much to describe these cans. I just tried them vs. some ATH-AD900s that I like a lot and found that I prefer the quicker, punchier sound of the new cans. The ATHs easily win on comfort though. Those who want a really tubey, big tone midrange kind of sound may not like these new cans that much. These are more of an extended frequency sound without much mid bloom. Clean highs, more of a neutral (maybe less intimate is a reasonable descriptor?) mid sound, and very dynamic bass that actually lets your ears feel some impact. Not like gut pounding bass, but there is a definite tactile element that I found a nice surprise. Vocals sound balanced and resolved, but they don't do "big head" or "chick whispering in your ear". Maybe the best description is that the cans seem to bring out those OTL amp positive attributes of tight bass and a very clean sort of sound.
One thing for sure, I could REALLY hear the improvement that John Swenson's software filter makes over the DAC chip's stock filter. Turned out I had been running the stock filter all day during a listening session on Friday - arggh.
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OK we crunched some numbers today and the project looks viable. We need a few more parts to build a production prototype and I want to try a couple of refinements to the damping materials I chose. Here's a little teaser of the prototype kit cable.
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Very nice, can i ask what cable you are using or is that a trade secret?
My condolences to whoever has to solder those 3.5mm sockets, i smell lots of burnt fingertips in your future :)
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My condolences to whoever has to solder those 3.5mm sockets, i smell lots of burnt fingertips in your future :)
I'm guessing that the headphone Doc has chosen already has a 3.5mm socket - I doubt that the kit will involve drilling for and then wiring up a socket, though I might well be wrong. We'll know soon enough. Soldering a 3.5 plug is not at all difficult, even for my past-their-prime eyes and fingers. I am curious about the cabling, though. I've done a whole bunch of custom headphone cables and am curious to see Doc's approach to enhancing the high end.
I'm most definitely in for a pre-order when they become available.
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Guys, remember that I am a pragmatist. The cable was chosen based upon my previous experiences with what works to open up the top end. There is no magic 11 strand overhand braiding for transparency sublimation or boson enhanced silver flakes for reduced time dilation or imperial yak hair lining for lower uncertainty factor. It's just high quality commercially available cable that got the cans to sound the way I wanted for this particular application.
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I think some magic may have been imparted when I sneezed on the wire?
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Most assuredly.
Especially if you had the H1N1 flu virus. Which is so strong it recrystallizes the copper molecule to a more transparent phase.
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Hi Doc and all.
Don't count me in (For now) but I am curious to see what you will come up with.
Guy 13
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... There is no magic 11 strand overhand braiding for transparency sublimation or boson enhanced silver flakes for reduced time dilation or imperial yak hair lining for lower uncertainty factor. It's just high quality commercially available cable that got the cans to sound the way I wanted for this particular application.
No speculation involved here, just a curiosity as to what you will be using. Certainly, at the price point mentioned before, no one would expect esoteric materials and being a DIY kit, we'd hardly expect you to have people braiding 4 wire litz configurations. I'm happy to just sit back and wait for you to announce availability at some point.
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Hi Doc,
Really interested in purchasing the pre-order but the international shipping really kills the deal. Is there any possibility to have some kind of economic shipping to Australia to sweeten the deal?
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maybe a dumb question... is there resistance in the cable to increase the load impedance as seen by the Crack, so it operates in it's butterzone?
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Yes the cable has some resistance. We tried several configurations before we settled on the method used.
Not sure what to say about shipping. We have found usps priority to be the least expensive method and that is what the shopping cart charges when you order. Perhaps if you arrange a group buy with fellow Aussies you could reduce the shipping cost.
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I should ask what the shipping charge was that you saw. If it is not the correct rate for USPS priority we will fix it.
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Shipping cost to Australia was quoted as $52 and for 2 headphone it was $104
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I had the same issue ordering the quickie, shipping to Ireland was $42 but when i added another item (PJCCS) the shipping cost doubled to $84. In that instance i just called Eileen and she sorted it out for me.
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Yes the cable has some resistance. We tried several configurations before we settled on the method used.
Doc, with the current product page description, people might think you're talking strictly about a materials choice (e.g. copper vs. silver) for sound tweaking. I personally think you'd avoid a lot of confusion from BH fans / potential buyers if you put this information right into your product page directly after mentioning that they're low-impedance, 40ohm headphones. Anybody that's ever read up on the Crack is under the impression that the lowest possible hp impedance they should consider is 150-200ohms, and without a little bit more info, it just doesn't gel with the guidelines BH has given in the past. Knowing that the 8323 retails for $20, I was scratching my head when I read the email & product page this morning - comes off the wrong way, sorta.
Otherwise, now knowing that the cable is what brings it together, sounds like a pretty killer concept - hope I have the chance to hear it sometime soon.
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Thanks for the observation. To clarify, the cable is only one part of the kit. There are several changes made that are not related to the cable. Some changes affect the bass, some affect the midrange, some affect the treble, some affect the wearing comfort.
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Thanks for the observation. To clarify, the cable is only one part of the kit. There are several changes made that are not related to the cable. Some changes affect the bass, some affect the midrange, some affect the treble, some affect the wearing comfort.
Totally with you on that - I know there's a lot more to the kit than the cable.
Was just talking strictly about the apparent impedance mismatch/contradiction in the absence of additional info. I know the BH philosophy teaches people to relax on applying 8/10-to-1 hp-to-output impedance rule to focus on other things, but that difference between 40ohms and ~150+ohms threw me for a loop when I first saw it, that's all.
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I had the same issue ordering the quickie, shipping to Ireland was $42 but when i added another item (PJCCS) the shipping cost doubled to $84. In that instance i just called Eileen and she sorted it out for me.
May I know what was the quoted price to ship 2 for you?
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I did go back and attempt to clarify the description on the product page. I would caution anyone who takes "impedance rules" or other audio rules of thumb as absolute. There are a lot of factors involved in designing these kinds of systems and it's a lot better to think of them as guidelines than rules. Every design choice has a positive aspect and a negative aspect, and the creative part of the design process is getting the positives to outweigh the negatives.
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Doc, since the cord is removable, this might be the perfect kit for me to use at my office. I plan to put the Crack I'm building at my desk, but I also spend some time marking up drawings in the conference room.
Could I make 2 cords, one with the resistance and one without so I could use it with the Crack at my desk and with my iPhone when I'm working away from my desk?
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I have been so focused on making this kit specifically for Crack that I have not listened to other amps with the modded cans and stock cord. I will try to carve out some time to listen today with other amps and an iPhone and give an opnion on whether the other mods besides the cable are a plus or minus with other gear.
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I think the Bottlehead skins are the magic for the cans. 8)
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Nice range of smileys btw on the reply panel...lol!
Yeah I am looking forward to a package deal...Bottlephones with Crack and Speedball.
I will of course tweak the parts and tinker with it...that's what I love about bottlehead stuff.
This will be a nice interim step till I get into a better situation and can save up for some Paramounts
and building some Fostex 206's in John Swensens's bazooka config.
I am also thrilled that you have a BSC kit available since that build needs one.
Happy bottling to everyone.
PS. Was great talking to you on the phone...always value your insights
jgwtriode