Bottlehead Forum
Bottlehead Finished Products => Legacy Products => Bottlehead DAC => Topic started by: Doc B. on October 16, 2014, 11:28:05 AM
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Our Bottlehead DAC crowdfund page is live! We need just twenty commitments by November 13th to put this amazing John Swenson designed DAC into production. Early opters-in who place their order in the first week of the funding period will receive a marvelous sounding Supra USB cable with their DAC as a demonstration of our gratitude. And anyone who orders more than one DAC will receive a 1 meter Bottlenect interconnect kit for each DAC.
Here's how we are going about this crowdfunding:
Because of the high PC board production costs, and high volume parts purchases we must make to qualify for some necessary software licenses, we find it necessary to have twenty people commit to the first production run of these DACs.
The buyer will commit to a $1550 order (plus $15 for shipping in the US, $25 outside the US). The nature of our security system requires that the payment be processed the day you make your commitment. This is because we do not keep any of your credit card information on our server or in our facility. Thus we cannot hold the credit card information from a “pledge†in order to process it at a future date. The funding period will be from October 16th thru November 12th 2014 and the funds will be held in a dedicated account. If at the end of that period we have achieved at least 20 commitments the funds will be used to get the components into production with an estimated ship date about eight weeks from November 13th. If we have not received 20 commitments by November 13th, all of your money will be refunded.
We will track the number of commitments in this thread on the Bottlehead Forum so everyone can follow the progress. As a thank you for early commitments, those who commit their order by October 23rd will receive a Supra USB 2.0 cable (a $50 value) with their DAC. We discovered the Supra cable during the development of the Bottlehead DAC and the improvement in sound over a run of the mill USB cable was not subtle. Anyone who commits to more than one DAC will receive a 1 meter Bottlenect interconnect kit.
Here's a link to the hot scoop. There's a pretty detailed description available by clicking on the More tab, so settle down with your favorite beverage and geek out -
http://bottlehead.com/product/bottlehead-dac/ (http://bottlehead.com/product/bottlehead-dac/)
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Wow, we are barely out of the gate and we already have two commitments. Thank you Dave and Taran! That leaves just 18 needed to make this project happen. Remember that your commitment made by October 23rd gets you a Supra USB cable included along with your DAC, a $50 value. John Swenson told me about this cable and I bought one to try out. He was right on that it makes a great sounding DAC sound even better.
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Two more commitments! Thank you Mark and Bernie! Just 16 to go to make this project happen.
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That's brilliant!
I wish I could help the process, but alas not right now, so thank you to the early buyers for helping make this DAC a reality so that those like me who want to buy it, but need to wait for later batches will have their chance. :)
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And we are now up to 5 (thanks Bryce!), and thus already 25% of the way to our goal in the first few hours of this crowdfund.
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Doc; I have an OPPO BDP-95 player which I use mostly for CD listening into my all-BH system. I checked the OPPO user manual to see if an outboard DAC can be used with this machine. Alas, nothing in the manual talks about an outboard DAC. Since you are running an OPPO BDP-103, I wonder what sort of outputs does one look for in seeking a connection for the BH DAC? I am ready to join the funding, but not sure if it will mate with my player. Any counsel will be greatly appreciated......
Cheers, Hank in Eugene
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My 103 has optical (TOSLINK) and coax digital outputs. If your 95 has those that is what you would use.
Edit - look at the rear panel connectors in your manual. It's #11, Coax and optical digital output
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We now have six commitments. Thanks Mike! Just fourteen to go.
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Doc B., just curious: I am under the impression that the BDP-95 also has a USB port. If that is so, which of the three possible connections do you think might be the better one to try? Or, would USB connection on BDP-95 be better used for a different purpose?
I am the first to admit that the variety of digital audio connections out there is a bit baffling to me...
Thanks!
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AFAIK the USB port on an OPPO is for connecting an external drive in order to play files stored on that drive. I don't think it is possible to use it as a digital output.
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Ah, thanks. That would certainly seem plausible. Best luck!
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I must amend my thanks to say thanks guys and gals! Thanks Deb! We are now at 7 commitments, 1/3 of the way to our goal.
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When I got to the part to enter my CC info, the fields were there and I could select them but could not enter any info. I switched to PayPal and was able to continue. will that work?...John
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I forgot to mention that screen was bugged for me too, all the text in the fields looked like it was size 2 text and unreadable but it did accept the information. (Using Firefox on Windows8.1)
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Hi John, yes Paypal is just fine. Thanks for your support! That brings us to eight commitments, just 12 to go. I will ask our IT man to look into the checkout page
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Just 19 hours into this crowdfund and we are halfway there! Thank you Hank and Robert! Just ten more commitments are needed to get the project into production.
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Sounds incredible. Ordered.
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And we are now at 11 commitments, with just nine left to go! Thanks John! The support here is incredible, thanks so much to everyone who has committed so far. Dare we fantasize that we might have this first production run covered in the first couple of days?
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And we have twelve commitments. Thank you Jay! Just 8 to go...
By the way PB and I are working on the production cabinet today. If things go well I hope to have a photo posted this weekend.
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Hey Doc,
Hearing "cabinet" made me think of a question. Would there be any reason (say, heat) that one would be advised not to make a decorative 'sleeve' or cover for the DAC? Something strictly cosmetic that just slipped over the metal portion of the chassis and would lay between the front and back panels (as shown in the prototype photo), sort of like the old cabinets you'd slide a tube tuner or receiver into.
thanks,
David
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Hey Doc,
Hearing "cabinet" made me think of a question. Would there be any reason (say, heat) that one would be advised not to make a decorative 'sleeve' or cover for the DAC? Something strictly cosmetic that just slipped over the metal portion of the chassis and would lay between the front and back panels (as shown in the prototype photo), sort of like the old cabinets you'd slide a tube tuner or receiver into.
A DAC coozy?
Heat won't be an issue, but you have to promise to post photos.
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Our only concern is that we won't be able to honor a warranty if the cabinet has been opened. So if you make a sleeve that slips over or U shaped cover that fits over the case that would be fine. But if you take the end panels off to install a "square tube" the warranty will be void.
I know this is hard for our dedicated customers to perceive since we have always been very supportive of anyone who wants to mod a kit. But this is a finished product with very expensive components that can be damaged if mishandled, and the only way we can afford to put these out at the price we have set is by making it clear that if a main board is fried in the process of someone besides us going into the cabinet the user will have to buy a new board and have us install it.
We are going out of our way to make the setup as bullet proof as possible. In fact in our last round of adjustments to one of the secondary boards in the DAC we included some additional protection against users trying to connect a supply that might be too high a voltage or the wrong polarity.
The photos of the final cabinet may alay some concerns about the cosmetics. It looks a little more finished than the prototype.
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Say, Paul; I imagine Clark will be able to supply something that matches his other 'bamboo tuxedos'. Hope he is listening! Maybe his cover could be installed 'at the factory', and thus less problematical in terms of the warranty. I'd love to see this as an option on the order page.
Glad to be on board, Hank
PS: I am superb with wet clay, but a klutz with electronics, so very happy that you will be building mine!
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Yep - a Dac coozy indeed...hmmm...Dacoozy sounds almost like a decent, if a bit cheeky, product name.
Thanks for the elaboration on the end panels...I was thinking of a sleeve but now it's a U, with maybe a top (or bottom) to enable non-invasive installation.
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Lucky thirteen! Just seven to go to hit our goal!
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I need to make my decision soon. C'mon guys, buy the Big Pre!
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And we are at fourteen. Thanks Aaron! Wouldn't it be something if we could reach our goal of twenty before the weekend is over? We just need six more people to get on board and we will be ready to start ordering up a big ol' pile of chips.
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Good idea re the voltage & polarity protection.
I can't tell you how many of my customers fried parts with over voltage / reverse polarity. And the reverse polarity protection is one cheap diode.
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Doc,
Are you locked in at 20, will the >20 crowd go into the next run or will the initial run be increased? I need this to last till the 22nd...at this rate I'll be in the second run.
Alonzo
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OK, I'm in.
BTW - The problem with the checkout is still there. I found a workaround though. Go to preferences and select a smaller font. I had to go from 16 to 10. I think the field is just a wee bit too small for larger fonts.
Now the waiting begins...............
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Ok, we are at 16 commited. Thanks Phuong and Tom! And also thanks to Dave, who was lucky thirteen and I forgot to thank! Just four to go to make this happen. We are certainly not locked in at 20, but we must have at least 20 or we can't do a production run at all. The sooner we get to 20 the sooner we can order the most critical parts, and the sooner everyone will get their DAC.
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Ok, we are at 16 commited. Thanks Phuong and Tom! And also thanks to Dave, who was lucky thirteen and I forgot to thank! Just four to go to make this happen. We are certainly not locked in at 20, but we must have at least 20 or we can't do a production run at all. The sooner we get to 20 the sooner we can order the most critical parts, and the sooner everyone will get their DAC.
Cool, so you'll keep taking orders after the 20! Nice. I really want one of these, but can't be part of the 20. I'm pleased to see it's happening so fast.
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Thank you Frank, Craig and David! That brings us to nineteen commitments for the new DAC.
We just need one more to get this production rolling! Who's going to get us over the top?
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Wow, I almost pulled the trigger, but the CDN to US conversion puts me over $1800. I'm gonna wait a few days and see if Stevie has a plan to improve things.
I have until the 23rd to get the free cable so I will be hitting the buy button before then for sure.
Aural Robert
... don't forget your mittens ...
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We now have 24 commitments. Thank you Greg, Ansgar, Jerome, Marian, and Dave! We will be getting orders in for the components that we have to order in quantity to receive licensing as soon as possible. That way we will have them ready when we are starting the production run at the end of the crowdfunding.
I want to remind those of you who are thinking of commiting that our special offer of a Supra USB cable to be included with your DAC lasts through Thursday October 23rd.
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Excellent news, congrats on a successful project (https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cr-x.org%2Fgif%2Fbeer.gif&hash=a54af39185b722927bf6e67f4aafc913156b5c01)
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Might they be ready for Santa's Sleigh ?:D
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We are estimating early January for delivery of the first units. A software icense needs to be acquired. Chips have to be ordered and programmed by the manufacturer. The boards have to be made, assembled shipped to us and programmed some more. There are a lot of steps in the process so I prefer to take a conservative approach to a delivery estimate.
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" I prefer to take a conservative approach to a delivery estimate"
For a change?
(It's a joke)
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Wouldn't it be something if we could reach our goal of twenty before the weekend is over?
You did, congrats. :)
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As of this morning I think we are at 25 DACs ordered. We crunched the numbers for this run a couple months ago and I was reviewing them this morning. Basically it works out that we need to order parts for 40 DACs (plus a $minimum order$ of a much larger number of oscillators and USB chips) to get the best prices and actually break even. I figure we will need a few review samples, so that means we have about 10 left from this first run. Certainly we will do more runs so this is not a one time deal. It will just some extra time to get the boards made for those future runs as we will need to continue to order the boards in lots of at least 40. So if you want to get a DAC sooner rather than later (like probably January rather than maybe February or March) it might behoove you to commit to one of the ten or so remaining in this first production run.
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Does this mean every new run will require a certain number of orders, or will there just be a longer wait as funds come in from other places, too?
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The plan right now is to get the first 40 going ASAP. It might take a little time to get a feel for how far ahead to order another run so that it comes in around the time the existing run sells out. For this first round the lead time on this stuff is like 4-6 weeks to get the chips made and programmed and then after that a couple more weeks to get the boards made and assembled. Then we have to assemble, test and burn in the DACs. For board production runs after the first run that initial 4-6 week wait for the chips won't be a factor for quite a while, because we have to buy a s**t ton of them up front.
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Congratulations Doc and Team Bottlehead!!! I wish I could have been a part of the opening run, but I'm excited to see that the project is now a reality - very excited for you all!!!
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Just a quick reminder that today is the last day to get in on the free-Supra-USB-cable-with-your-DAC-order deal.
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Just a quick reminder that today is the last day to get in on the free-Supra-USB-cable-with-your-DAC-order deal.
My order got in under the wire, right?
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It sure did, Dave. Thank you!
I will try to have a photo of the back panel posted in the next day or two.
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We have officially begun the first DAC production run today, by ordering the two chips that need several weeks lead time - one large quantity order that takes a pretty long lead time for programming and the other a large quantity order to qualify for the license for the necessary Windows USB driver. Since we have already achieved our funding goal we figured that by starting these now we should be able to deliver a little sooner than if we wait until the end of the funding period. In for a penny, in for a pound.
We still have a few DACs left in the first run. The closer you wait until the end of the funding period the better chance of your DAC order getting slated for the second run.
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"Windows Driver License", god that must have killed you to pay for that :)
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"Windows Driver License", god that must have killed you to pay for that :)
LOL I gave up on Windows a long time ago. I'm a Linux guy myself.
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The available DACs continue to be reserved and we have comitted about 3/4 of the initial run. That means that, after I annex some units for demos, there are about half a dozen DACs left available in the first production run. We have analyzed the costs of a production run in some detail and it only makes sense to do another run when there are enough participants willing to commit to justify the quantity purchase of motherboards needed to make this economically feasible. Thus we will probably space out the production runs a bit and do the second run in spring of 2015. So if you don't want to wait that long it will be worthwhile to order a DAC from this initial run.
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I pulled the trigger tonight. They call me 'gadget boy' at work, and I have a reputation to uphold. Can't wait!
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Thank you, and thanks to everyone else who has come on board the last week or so!
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Looks like we now have about four DACs left in our first production run.
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Hey Dan would you post the dimensions of the DAC and the battery kit if that's far enough along.
Thanks
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I am in! Excitedly looking forward to it.
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Thanks John! And thanks to all the folks who have ordered in the past few days. I think we have maybe two DACs available from our planned initial run of 40 units.
The DAC box is approximately 5" wide x 3.5" tall x 8" deep. The battery supply box dimensions are unknown at this point, but it will probably be a little bigger.
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I might be looking in the wrong places so apologies if this is easily found somewhere else, but is there an image of the finished product (casing, etc.) anywhere to be seen yet?
EDIT: Sorry - just found it for myself! :-[
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Say Doc or Paul; How about an update on DAC progress for those who have ordered, and eagerly await news?
Cheers, Hank in Eugene
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The chips that take several weeks to be manufactured and programmed were ordered a while ago. We checked in with the motherboard manufacturer and they say they should have them and be able to begin board production by the end of December. In the meantime we are waiting for a delivery of chassis boxes to arrive any day so we can start on the cabinets.
John has reworked the display board to better fit the cabinet and he has further tweaked his software filter.
We have also begun to acquire the components for the programmer that will burn the EEPROMs. Peebs hopes to have that assembled and tested in the next couple weeks.
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Beautiful!! Thanks Doc.
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Yes, Thank you Doc! This is my first DAC, and a bit of a stretch to my budget, so I am VERY interested in what's going on with the development. Would it be too much to ask for an update, say, every two weeks or so until the first units ship? Thanks again!
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How about if I agree to give an update when there is something to share? The way this works is we send a bunch of money, wait a while, then a big box shows up and we start doing all sort of interesting things I'd be happy to share. Right now we are somewhere in the middle of the wait a while part.
The next thing I will be doing is working wth PB to show him how we put the carbon fiber look on the cabinets. Peebs is under the weather this week, but we might start on that next week before we shut down for the holiday.
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Thanks for getting back again Doc, what you said is exactly what I was hoping for and looking forward to. Hope you all have a great holiday!
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I can say that while we are waiting for the boards to be printed, stuffed, and tested, we will be working on prepping the cabinets and procuring all the other random parts from our vendors. I'll also be sneaking into the office this coming week to thrash around with the programming software.
We expect things to move fairly quickly once the boards arrive, and it does seem reasonable to pop up some photos on this thread of our progress.
-PB
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I also did a tweak to the filter yesterday which gets just a little more "air" and "openness" out of your files.
I was also tweaking the gain slightly. You want the highest gain you can get out of the DAC chip to get the best SNR, but if it's too high you can get clipping on some files. This is called inter-sample peaks. Lets say the original analog waveform coming from the mics has a sharp peak that is in-between two samples, if those two samples are set to maximum digital level, when the filter in the DAC is computing what the analog signal did in-between the samples it can get a signal higher than maximum. My filter is particularly prone to this since it is optimized to faithfully reproduce the original transients.
I thought I had this dialed in just right, but yesterday I was listening to some acapella choral music and noticed some clips, so I had to tweak it down just a little bit more and then gave it just a little more margin. It now handles everything I have just fine. It is strange that just singing has the steepest transients I have in my recordings, you would not expect that, but I have seen it many times before. Not piano or drums, but good old singing, the human voice can do amazing things.
(BTW with the new filter that recording is out of this world)
John S.
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I worked a bit today on applying the carbon fiber vinyl to the DAC enclosure covers. Doc B. showed me some of his mysterious techniques, and these will be keeping me busy for a while!
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I worked a bit today on applying the carbon fiber vinyl to the DAC enclosure covers. Doc B. showed me some of his mysterious techniques, and these will be keeping me busy for a while!
thanks for the updates to you and to John S. Exciting times.
By the way, A month ago i saw a bmw sport utility totally reskinned in carbon fibre vinyl. Strange sight, took the installer three days.
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The CF vinyl was inspired by my CBR project. I was happy with the look and when we wanted to do something to the DAC cabinet that was a little different a light bulb went off.
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I was also tweaking the gain slightly. You want the highest gain you can get out of the DAC chip to get the best SNR, but if it's too high you can get clipping on some files. This is called inter-sample peaks. Lets say the original analog waveform coming from the mics has a sharp peak that is in-between two samples, if those two samples are set to maximum digital level, when the filter in the DAC is computing what the analog signal did in-between the samples it can get a signal higher than maximum. My filter is particularly prone to this since it is optimized to faithfully reproduce the original transients.
John, I have experienced the clipping you are talking about on my current DAC. Quite frankly it drives me nuts when I hear it. I'm glad that you have taken the time to address this phenomenon before the first run ships out.
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Does this mean an Ohlins rear shock and SHOWA forks on the the DAC and Yoshimura rearsets on the battery kit? :)
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Does the DAC in current form run with OSX Yosemite?
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The CF vinyl was inspired by my CBR project. I was happy with the look and when we wanted to do something to the DAC cabinet that was a little different a light bulb went off.
Stealth!
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I thought I had this dialed in just right, but yesterday I was listening to some acapella choral music and noticed some clips, so I had to tweak it down just a little bit more and then gave it just a little more margin. It now handles everything I have just fine. It is strange that just singing has the steepest transients I have in my recordings, you would not expect that, but I have seen it many times before. Not piano or drums, but good old singing, the human voice can do amazing things.
It makes me think if the same problem will be found in even more dynamic recordings. Will it be possible to write a small application that runs through a ripped CD collection and log any problems regarding inter-sample peaks? In that way we could all run the app and send your the result hence having a much larger sample of CD's analyzed to avoid problems.
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It makes me think if the same problem will be found in even more dynamic recordings. Will it be possible to write a small application that runs through a ripped CD collection and log any problems regarding inter-sample peaks? In that way we could all run the app and send your the result hence having a much larger sample of CD's analyzed to avoid problems.
Such software would have to actually implement the filter and run it for real on the data, checking for overflow as it went. This is not a trivial little piece of software and of course there would have to be versions for at least windows, OSX and Linux.
Not really something I want to deal with right now. I added a little bit of extra margin so it should be all right for anything out there.
Strange as it may seem it is compressed recordings that have the problem. Think of it this way, you have an analog waveform whose peak analog voltage is exactly equal to the maximum of the ADC. If the sample points fall on both sides of a sharp transient, those sample values will be less than full value, so the reconstruction will be right at maximum value, no clipping.
The problem happens when the digital stream is then compressed and the whole thing is moved so the highest sample value is now at the maximum possible sample value. Thus when reconstructed the inter sample peak is greater than the max and it clips.
John S.
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It's mid January. How is the progress and estimated ship date looking?
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We have quite an impressive stock of DAC bits at Bottleheadquarters currently. The acrylic front panels have been cut and polished, but not machined out just yet. Shipments of boards have been arriving lately also, so assembly can begin shortly.
I am currently still working on setting up the programming for the DAC boards, which I hope to have wrapped up by next week. We are also waiting on our Windows Xmos license.
Beyond that, we are just missing a few odds and ends to be able to begin shipping.
-PB
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Thank you for the update Paul!
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We got the new programmer in today, and it's up and running.
-PB
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We were able to obtain the last tidbits of paperwork yesterday to acquire the Xmos driver. Once processed, John will be able to tidy up the last of the Xmos programming, and we can begin flashing the programming onto the DACs.
-PB
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I got back from a very busy weekend in San Francisco, where the main thrust was our yearly meeting to discuss Tape Project business. Luckily part of that business was done at Paul Stubblebine's mastering lab, and since he has a couple of Pacific Microsonics Model 2 a/d d/a converters there it seemed like a great opportunity to compare the Bottlehead DAC with that gold standard for DACs.
Model 2s were discontinued when the very rare transistors used in them went out of production. They are highly sought after in the industry for their amazing resolution and tube-like musicality, and these days one typically fetches around $16-$17K. So the BDAC had it's work cut out for it.
The situation was not optimal because the BDAC only got an hour or so to warm up and stabilize before we started the A/B. It seems to open up quite a bit more if left on overnight. Even so it did not embarass itself in the presence of the 10X more expensive Model 2. I gave a nod to the Model 2 for a little higher resolution and a little more relaxed sound. I thought the BDAC did maybe a little better job on the bottom end definition - particularly after we figured out the Bag End subs were not running with the Meyer Sound HD-1 monitors and switched them in. FWIW Paul had to push a lot fewer buttons (none) to set the sample rate on the BDAC.
At some point I realized that I had set the power switch on our protoype battery supply to run both the wall wart and the battery together. When I switched the wall wart off so the BDAC was strictly on battery power the gap closed up quite a bit, with the top end of the BDAC getting smoother and less compressed sounding. That matches my experience in my reference system.
I was also relieved to find that the $1550 BDAC easily outdid an Apogee MiniDAC in Paul's home system. Let's hope so!
Of course you have to take my opinions with a grain of salt since I am so heavily invested in the product. Paul, on the other hand, has at least a couple Model 2s that he uses constantly in his work system. He can and will buy what he feels is the best tool for the job at hand. I was happy to learn that he ordered two BDACs for his home systems.
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Don't know how this got past me for so long. Probably because I haven't been paying attention to BH for a while. Just found out about the DAC a few days ago and read all the posts. Ordered one last night. Can't wait.
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Thanks for the updated PB and Dan. What's the timeframe looking like for the battery kit?
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I'm sure those involved want us to focus on getting the DAC out first, and that is what we are doing. After we have shipped the first run we will be getting into the battery supply. There are a couple of experiments I need to try before we finalize the design.
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No pressure! You guys have a lot of irons in the Fire already.
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Thanks for the updated PB and Dan. What's the timeframe looking like for the battery kit?
I can provide a little more detail on the battery kit. We know the battery supply sounds better, but we will be spending a little bit of time evaluating different battery chemistries before putting out the battery power supply. I don't plan to spend a whole ton of time on this until the first couple DACs are out the door.
-PB
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I can provide a little more detail on the battery kit. We know the battery supply sounds better, but we will be spending a little bit of time evaluating different battery chemistries before putting out the battery power supply. I don't plan to spend a whole ton of time on this until the first couple DACs are out the door.
-PB
Will it be an idea to investigate the ultracapasitor technology as Vinnie Rossi is using it in he's upcoming LIO?
This could be a fine kit to offer for the BDAC.
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Will it be an idea to investigate the ultracapasitor technology as Vinnie Rossi is using it in he's upcoming LIO?
This could be a fine kit to offer for the BDAC.
Ultracaps are great for quickly absorbing or releasing energy, which is great for a power amplifier (especially a class D amp), and not so great for a piece of equipment that has a constant current draw.
-PB
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This is production DAC #1 being assembled at our new DAC assembly station. Next step is to test our new programmers on it. We're getting close...
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Looking good! Thank you Dan for the update!
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Excellent, i see you have Paul literally tied to the desk :)
Is that odd looking USB interface the programmer?
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Cool, My birthday is in late Feb, Just saying 8)
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Today I listened to a while for a nice big line lump that PB found to include with the DAC as a power supply, in place of the more standard wall wart we had planned to use. It makes for a nice step up in sound quality. We will also be listening to different battery chemistries as part of the development of the future battery power supply kit, once all of our evaluation samples arrive.
Front panels have been cut out and are awaiting polishing.
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We moved a couple more steps forward today. Back panels arrived and are beginning the finishing process. And we got our XMOS license for the Windows USB driver, so you PC guys will be able to use the DAC's USB input too.
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Just completed hand finishing another stack of back panels. And I came in to find a nice group of DACs in the midst of assembly this morning, after the guys had stayed late last night to push forward on the job.
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Doc & company, Thank you for keeping us posted on progress. I would think that to all of us as DIY people, this is just pretty exciting. I can say for myself that oftentimes the journey is as good as, and sometimes, even better than the arrival. This chronicling of your best efforts going into the making of the Bottlehead DAC allows us some participation, even if it's "virtual", in that journey and I'm looking very much forward to the arrival. Thanks again!
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Peebs got the main programmer working today and got eight DACs assembled to the point where they can be programmed. We will next test the XMOS USB chip programmer, and then it will be on to final assembly, burn-in and checkout of the first batch. Later this week we will be writing the operation manual, which we will post online.
(https://scontent-b-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/p526x296/10450419_795348890500862_6509889316646644669_n.jpg?oh=a52a7274c044e009bedd80118df3958b&oe=556C8E5C)
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Now that's an exciting pic!
I can't wait to read some impressions once the first batch is delivered!!
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Any end of the week updates team?
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The eight DAC's in the photo have their FPGA memory programmed. We ran into a hiccup with the Xmos programming, and John is working on a solution.
We also received all the power supplies today, as well as the back panel graphics.
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Are we able to control the volume via the OS?
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The DAC may need a FAQ Thread.
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Are we able to control the volume via the OS?
Yes.
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If you mean are you able to control the volume ahead of the DAC, that will depend upon your setup. If, for example, you are using a computer and a player like Amarra, then yes, you can control output level in Amarra. If you use the DAC via coax or TOSLINK with a CD player that has no volume control, the DAC itself does not have a level control in the firmware. You would adjust level at the preamp or amp that it is connected to.
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We have tried a couple of different ways of programming the XMOS chip that handles USB in the DAC here in the lab and we've run into a hitch. John Swenson has been writing new routines, verifying them on his setup and sending them to us. Unfortunately this has not resolved the issue for us, so today we are overnighting our programmer and a DAC board to John so he can work out what is going on. Once this issue is worked out everything will be in place and the DAC elves should be finishing up a big stack 'o' DACs to burn in and ship out.
In the meantime we have received the first shipment of Supra USB cables to go with those DACs ordered by early birds. We got all the cables they had in the US, and more are on their way from the factory in Sweden in about a week.
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Thanks for the update Dan. How many DAC's are you going to get out initially and what is your expected turn around for the rest of the first run?
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It depends upon the timing of this last adjustment. We have eight of the 25 cables that were ordered. So if the programming fix is quick we might ship those ASAP. If the fix takes a few days we might have the rest of the cables by then and be able to ship more. I will keep everyone posted.
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Hey Dan, et al,
I just have to say thanks for the updates and transparency throughout this process. It is, I think, a unique model of new product development and introduction (at least in my experience - I don't count Kickstarter projects because I have learned delivery is anything but guaranteed), and I sincerely appreciate it.
thanks!
David
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The flash chips used in the prototypes were not available anywhere on the planet, so the board house had to use a slightly different model that was supposed to be completely compatible, but it turned out it had a different "device ID", the programmer was checking the ID and wouldn't program it.
I had to create a custom flash configuration and compile the program for that, then it worked. So crisis resolved.
John S.
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Thank you John! Looking forward to receiving mine soon!
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I may be overly bold here, but that seems to be the last impediment to getting some DACs assembled and burning in. I requested that John be sent our adapter for programming the flash chips as well as a DAC board, just to rule out that the adapter might be the problem. As I already mentioned the main programmer that sets up the software for the FPGA seems to be working great. So once the adapter gets back here to the lab PB will start turnin' 'em and burnin' 'em.
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I may be overly bold here, but that seems to be the last impediment to getting some DACs assembled and burning in.
Wait, I thought I was the last impediment?
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More like the final hurdle.
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More like the final hurdle.
Sounds like you've been promoted, PB!
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Nothing is ever easy is it...John
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Yes.
If you mean are you able to control the volume ahead of the DAC, that will depend upon your setup. If, for example, you are using a computer and a player like Amarra, then yes, you can control output level in Amarra. If you use the DAC via coax or TOSLINK with a CD player that has no volume control, the DAC itself does not have a level control in the firmware. You would adjust level at the preamp or amp that it is connected to.
This is confusing. Although I think I have the answer I need, which is in bold. I would like clarification. I understand that volume can be controlled in your music player via software, that should be obvious. I was wondering if we have any control over the output levels of the DAC directly through the OS. (ie. my odac can be controlled using the volume keys on my keyboard) From what Doc wrote above, it looks like the answer to what I'm asking is no. I can assume a constant output then (when all software volume is at 100%), in all situations, correct?
Good to see the first run of DACs are almost out the door, I'm eagerly awaiting to hear people's responses.
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I may be overly bold here, but that seems to be the last impediment to getting some DACs assembled and burning in. . . . .
You have passed bold. I have said something like this to a production manager in troubleshooting situations and learned to regret it.
I wish you much better luck! I really want to see this succeed.
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Better to be overly bold than underly timid....I think...
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Not necessarily true when downtime is charged at $25,000 an hour. I prefer to be like Scotty on Star Trek.
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Yes that is correct, the DAC does not include software for volume control. You would adjust level in the player software or at the preamp that the DAC is connected to.
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You are not controlling your odac directly. Your keyboard volume control is controlling your player software. Should work the same was with the Bottlehead DAC...John
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This is confusing. Although I think I have the answer I need, which is in bold. I would like clarification. I understand that volume can be controlled in your music player via software, that should be obvious. I was wondering if we have any control over the output levels of the DAC directly through the OS. (ie. my odac can be controlled using the volume keys on my keyboard) From what Doc wrote above, it looks like the answer to what I'm asking is no. I can assume a constant output then (when all software volume is at 100%), in all situations, correct?
Good to see the first run of DACs are almost out the door, I'm eagerly awaiting to hear people's responses.
Whether using the volume control on the keyboard will affect the output volume depends on the software player and how it is routed. Most OSs include some form of OS mixer, if your player routes the audio through the OS sound path then using the keys WILL change the volume. This can be actually done in several ways depending on the OS and DAC driver. In some cases pressing the keys changes the volume of the OS mixer, which does the volume change, OR the software player can register itself to receive the volume control events and do the volume control in the player, OR the DAC driver can regitser the DAC to receive the volume control events.
In the case of a USB DAC the DAC can tell the USB driver whether it responds to volume control events. In the BH DAC case the DAC itself does not respond to volume control events, so it does not register to receive them, thus pressing the keys will either cause the player to do the volume control, or in the default case the OS mixer does the volume control.
This is assuming the player is sending the data through the OS audio path which includes the mixer. For example if you are on Windows and using a player which is setup to use ASIO, it will NOT send the data through the OS mixer. So if the player registers itself to receive volume control events then it can do the volume control. If it does not so register itself then using the keys will not affect the volume.
So the upshot is that more than likely the volume keys will work, but there is a chance they will not depending on the player you are using and how it has been configured.
I know not a simple answer, but that is the way it is today.
John S.
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Thanks John!
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Thanks John. That's very informative and tells me exactly what I wanted to know.
You are not controlling your odac directly. Your keyboard volume control is controlling your player software. Should work the same was with the Bottlehead DAC...John
There are too many people named John on this forum... ::) But you're right, I was misinformed on the ODAC. I thought I was controlling a volume control on the ODAC but after looking into this closely it's merely the mixer in the OS I'm using. Cheers.
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I'm John S. That should clear things up ;D...John Scanlon
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Our programming adapter is home (thanks for the speedy return, John!) and with a little luck we are fixin' to get some DACs assembled today. We're going to carefully monitor the burn in of these guys for a bit before we send any out. Feels like it's getting pretty close to shipping time.
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The production board that I programmed on Saturday has been running for 2.5 days now. When I first got it running I listened to it, the sound was not very good, very flat sounding. After 6 hours it was starting to sound pretty good, at a day it was sounding really good, after two days it was WOW!!!
It seems that 2 days of burn-in gets it to something like 95% of the way there.
I couldn't sleep after about 3:30 this morning so I spent a couple hours listening to it in the main system, I was really impressed, it's slightly better than the prototype, which has the wrong clock.
I think people are really going to like this.
John S.
PS can you say Proud Papa Syndrome!
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Sounds like were getting real close now, looking forward to it :)
Do we have any solid numbers on the voltage/current the unit needs?
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We probably won't be dealing with that kind of thing until we are done with the task at hand, which is focusing on getting the DACs finished and out to our customers who have been so patiently waiting.
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"we will wait until the task at hand is complete, which is focusing on getting the DACs finished and out to our customers who have been so patiently waiting."
Doc; Please don't send mine until you let PB out of his cage so he can deliver it on his way to R&R in Bend. That is, if he doesn't expire from overwork in the meantime. Being an artist, I can identify with John's 'proud papa syndrome'. I am sure your ears will agree with his.
Cheers are in Order! Hank in Eugene
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More good news today - we are through the programming hurdles at Bottleheadquarters.
I had to use a virtual machine to trick Windows 8 into letting me do what I needed to do, and now we will be moving on to finishing up the documentation process and burning all the DACs in.
-PB
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Here's the very first production unit being tested. This is a demo of the automatic sample rate detection.
http://youtu.be/v0BTfDUHgtw
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PB has been rigorously testing the DAC with various operating systems. There are a few small peculiarities with how some OSs recognize and run with the DAC via USB, and we will document these. Primarily they seem to be related to the latest generation of Win8 laptops. We will document everything we learn about it in the operating manual. Doesn't seem to be too big a deal, has to do with whether you plug the DAC in before or after you boot the computer.
Josh and I did some critical listening to our prototype unit against the first production unit. We had each plugged into a separate USB port on our Mac mini and we had no trouble at all switching from one to the other in the Audio Midi settings menu. The only real difference between the two was that the production unit has the latest filter software in it. Josh said to mention that even he could hear that the production unit was smoother in the mid treble and more resolved in the bass. I'm certainly going to reprogram the prototype unit to the latest software after hearing the difference. There is also quite a bit higher output from the production unit. I think we were having to adjust the level up on the prototype unit to match by clicking the volume up about 3dB.
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I don't think this is Crowd Funding but I wanted all Bottlehead friends to know I ordered one of the 3 extra DACs.
I'm like a kid on Christmas Morning!
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Glad to here we are close. This one has stopped working
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I'm like a kid on Christmas Morning!
Congrats! Doc mentioned the first eight should be shipping this week, cant wait :D
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A gaggle of DACs, breaking in nicely on the bench. (I'll take the blue tape off before shipping, don't worry)
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You may notice that we are running these in on all three inputs, using various sources. The DACs will be rotated so that each one gets run time on S/PDIF coax, TOSLINK, and USB.
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Inquiring minds wonder what the numbers mean.
Sample rate.
-PB
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If you mean the numbers on the tape those are used to track the steps of the testing process.
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Very cool! I think I was order 14 or 15 so I'm hoping that I'm in the second wave. ;D
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Wow they came out really cool looking! Great Job!
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Did the first eight get out this week?
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Four are boxed up for Monday's mail. Four more are burning in over the weekend, and should be ready for Tuesday's pickup.
It has been sort of tough to burn in more than 4 or 5 at a time, so we will be shipping lots of small clumps quite frequently.
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I am being picky enough to make the guys a little crazy. I am listening to and signing off on each and every DAC at all sample rates before it goes in the box. It does end up taking quite a bit of time, particularly when there are so many other things going on around here at the same time. Listening ran a little late on Friday and we missed the pickup cutoff time.
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Doc, knowing that you will be personally listening to and assuring the quality of the first DAC I have ever owned goes a long way in bolstering my belief I have made the right choice in buying the Bottlehead DAC. Thank you!
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The first DACs are on the brown truck.
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Just got a shipping confirmation, thanks guys!
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia0.giphy.com%2Fmedia%2FMOWPkhRAUbR7i%2Fgiphy.gif&hash=dfc5521bd8619f92321ae1c17ccece01401d1a3e)
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I should be somewhere in the second batch (number 14) and I'm looking forward to receiving that email!
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UN8YIR60Ij0
The first transport is away!
Can you tell me where I am in the queue?
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After nearly four years of working through a host of unforeseen challenges (like that last minute XMOS ID number thing) I'm going to play it safe and not say " DAC number X will ship at Y hour on Z day". We will take the same care with each and every DAC that we did with the first group that shipped today. We have a pretty thorough and efficient system for break in and final testing worked out (basically Josh has set up computers and DVD players all over the place so we can run some DACs on USB while others run on TOSLINK and still others run on coax S/PDIF), and we will continue to work on them every day until they have all shipped.
One great bit of news is that the rest of the Supra USB cables we promised to those who ordered early arrived today from Sweden via the distributor who is, conveniently, in Seattle. Thanks Lars!
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Congratulations, guys! Can't wait to hear from those who purchased one.
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I just happened to go home for lunch and saw the big brown truck was turning onto my street. I was just popping lunch into the microwave when there was a knock on the door and my DAC was waiting on the front step. I'm feeling very fortunate to be in the first wavelet of the first big wave :)
I've just enough time to plug it in and get it warming before I come back tonight and plug it into my Sex Amp for a listen and then to get my Mac Mini sorted before taking it up to the main system.
My dumb questions:
-I will be obliged to initially connect with a long USB cable - any issues or concerns (other than maybe noise, etc.) with that?
-I presume the DAC is hot-pluggable - is that right? If not, would one plug in USB w/ DAC power off, then DAC power on? Or all cold, DAC first then PC?
thanks,
David
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Gaahhhh! I thought I had a bit more time.
I'll email you the manual in a second.
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-I will be obliged to initially connect with a long USB cable - any issues or concerns (other than maybe noise, etc.) with that?
-I presume the DAC is hot-pluggable - is that right? If not, would one plug in USB w/ DAC power off, then DAC power on? Or all cold, DAC first then PC?
How long is long? I doubt it matters functionally, you may be able to hear a difference.
The DAC is hot-pluggable. In some cases, you may want to flip the selector switch if you're hot plugging USB. Sometimes a power cycle is useful when hot plugging USB, but most of the time that hasn't been necessary.
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Hey PB,
Thanks for the prompt reply.
The USB cable is, I think, roughly 10 feet long; it will run across the room from the PC just to try out the DAC. I think it came with a printer or something like that, so I doubt it's any great shakes as an interconnect (though, who knows - might be the sleeper tweak of the century).
The selector switch is a good idea; I'll do that.
I'm presuming that with no source connected, a display readout of 8.8.8 (kind of all segments lit) is normal.
thanks,
David
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Yes, the display readout is a bit random with nothing connected.
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I was using the prototype with what was probably a 15 foot or longer USB cable at Paul Stubblebine's studio. It worked up thru 96k very well. It may have been the cable, or it may have been that the Mac we were using had an issue that wouldn't let it send 192k to the DAC. Didn't have time to sort it out.
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I've had trouble with long cheap cables working reliably with high speed devices (such as the BH DAC). In every case changing to either a shorter cheap cable or a decent long cable fixed the problem.
John S.
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As of this afternoon all of the DACs ordered thru the first day of pre orders have shipped. That is one fifth of all that have been ordered. We seem to be able to get four units tested and packed each day. We're trying to run each DAC in for a couple of days before that. I think PB said that the plan was to ship the next group on Thursday. If we can maintain the pace we should have all the DACs shipped in a couple/three weeks.
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John,
Any suggestions for "decent long" cables? I have not got a clue. I'm a computer cripple.
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John,
Any suggestions for "decent long" cables? I have not got a clue. I'm a computer cripple.
The Supra cables are the best but a little pricy. The Belkin pro series are quite good, a 16ft pro on Amazon is $11.
Whatever you do, don't get a USB 3.0 cable, it won't fit.
John S.
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That is good to know as i'll be using Belkin Pro cables with mine, they seemed like a nice construction to me with double shielding and larger gauge power wiring.
Is USB power required for the BH DAC to function, or is the interface powered internally?
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That is good to know as i'll be using Belkin Pro cables with mine, they seemed like a nice construction to me with double shielding and larger gauge power wiring.
Is USB power required for the BH DAC to function, or is the interface powered internally?
Nothing is powered off the VBUS. The VBUS is used, but it just tells the DAC it is connected to a computer. So in normal operation there are just a few nano amps of current coming from the VBUS wire.
John S.
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Eight more DACs are shipping out today, which means we will have shipped about 40% of the orders. We are hoping to ship another good sized batch on Tuesday.
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Sweet! I just got a UPS tracking e-mail. ;D
BTW Doc. I'll be pairing the Bottlehead DAC with the ALIX computer you sold me a few years ago.
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I'm a little jealous, as I never did get the Alix box running. I bet it will work nicely. Thanks for putting them together!
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Doc, are you shipping the canada items vias usps or ups?
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We always ship USPS to Canada.
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Thanks, ups has some extra fees i would rather not incur.
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My DAC has arrived, I don't have time to play with it now, have to that pesky work thing...John
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I recieved mine today and it is playing now.
My first imressions are very positve. I am hearing detail in the music I did not hear with my previous DAC, especially in the high end. I don't know how to describe it but ,music sounds more "real" than it did with my old DAC.
Thanks Bottlehead!
Debra
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Well I got home, Plugged it in to my Linux based music server via USB and it synced up right away, no need to load any drivers.
I tried a few different sample rate files and it has no problem recognizing them and displays them correctly.
It has plenty of output compared to the mostly DIY DACs in my collection. As a matter of fact in the temp setup I need to use the digital volume control lower than I like, I can live with it as long as a don't go below 90%. It is connected directly to my 300B amps at the moment. I will work on that.
It sounds great, I will let it burn in and get the gains where they need to be before I give my revue. But first impression, it sounds like vinyl, without the clicks and pops...John
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John
I have to agree with you the more I listened the more I thought that this sounds like vinyl!
Debra
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Thanks for the kind words kids! It's been a very, very long haul and it is very, very nice to hear the positive impressions.
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I'm still trying to rescue mine from Irish customs, after two days of playing pass the parcel with fantastically unhelpful civil servants i have employed a Customs Clearance Agency to deal with them. Fingers crossed i will have it by the weekend..
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Hi Doc,
I received my DAC today and I have a question about DAC power up.
The manual indicates that the wall wart should be powered up first.
My system is behind a power conditioner and all of the outlets are switched.
Is this ok or do I need to power up and then plug in the DAC?
Thanks
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What you really want to do is power up the DAC and just leave it on - no switched outlet. It sounds best when warmed up and it only draws about 3 watts. I believe the directions are to plug the line lump into the wall first and then into the DAC simply because it makes it easy to hook up all the connections on the back of the DAC in one fell swoop. We typically leave a power supply plugged into the wall outlet in the listening room and that allows me to easily change from one DAC to the next as I give them the final check. The only thing that has to be done when changing DACs is plug it all in - I generally plug in the interconnects, then the power cable, then the USB cable - and then restart Amarra, as it gets confused when one DAC is removed and a different DAC is plugged in.
There might also be a reasonable argument to having the safety ground of the line lump plugged into the wall before you connect the DAC to the power cable.
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Thanks Doc,
I will leave it powered up.
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As of this afternoon about 2/3 of the DACs will have been shipped.
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Is there a destination somewhere for reviews? I can't wait to read some
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Four more DACs shipped yesterday and four more should be shipping today. It's looking like all of them shall have been shipped by some time next week.
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John has been looking at a DAC that was returned because it was showing some weird behavior upon its arrival to the user. We put the shipment of the last four on hold while John narrowed down the issue. I am doing a final listen after an extended burn in period, and we are packing and shipping those last four today.
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Grainger, hope you get yours soon...you will enjoy!
BH-DAC, puts the Vinyl back in digital.
RCA 6A3 dual flat plate in BeePre
RCA 2A3 bi-plates in Stereomour
Sweet!
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Just curious, what are the chances of another batch of these being made available?