Bottlehead Forum
Other Gear => Speakers => Topic started by: Doc B. on October 15, 2009, 06:13:25 AM
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Here's a link to the PDF file of this design's discussion - a prototype product that won best sound of show, but was doomed when the midwoofer chosen for the design went out of production -
https://web.archive.org/web/20140209153406/http://www.bottlehead.com/climax/climax.pdf (https://web.archive.org/web/20140209153406/http://www.bottlehead.com/climax/climax.pdf)
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I Just spoke with eminence rep today regarding on LA6-MB. They are thinking about making the spakers again but they don't know when. They got call about the speaker often.
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What is the number. I will give them a call asking for a pair of the LA6-MB. Maybe if Eminence gets enough calls they will put the speakers back into production, or at least a limited run.
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What is the number. I will give them a call asking for a pair of the LA6-MB. Maybe if Eminence gets enough calls they will put the speakers back into production, or at least a limited run.
A while back(12/7/07) I requested a quote from Eminence for a minimal (100) custom production run of the speaker. I never did see that quote.
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Eminence has usually been pretty open to small production runs (100 units minimum) of custom drivers. In the current economic climate they are probably even more open - assuming they still have the experienced staff necessary.
When the Climax project was dropped, I looked into all that, and tried to find if there was enough interest in the community to justify such an order. I also had in mind some improvements that might add a modest cost but improve performance, such as underhung voice coils and a shorting ring to reduce distortion. At that time it did not appear that we would sell more than 25 or 30 drivers.
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The number I called is 502-845-5622 and I get transfered to a person (I forget the name). I get the call back from the person. Then number is 502-845-227. I have spoken with him about 10 to 15 minutes about how hard to find the speakers. The reason they discountinue it because they 'DON'T SELL'. Since he got many call requesting the speakers, he is thinking about putting it back in the market again, he said. However, he doesn't know 'WHEN'. I have made suggested to him that he can run a small batch to meet the demand.
If the speakers are available, I am thinking doing the "Climax Avec 4 Bangers" instead of regular a Climax. I am going to put 4 LA6-MBs and a tweeter in one enclosure. However, I am sure it is worth or not by doing that way. Paul may know this better since this is his design (and of course I don't any thing about the drivers and the xcross over).
or I am thinking about doing the 'Climax Avec 8 Bangers' aka 'Orgy Climax' by putting 8 LA6-MBs and a tweeter in one enclosure.
Xcross Over - Paul?
:)
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Eminence has usually been pretty open to small production runs (100 units minimum) of custom drivers. In the current economic climate they are probably even more open
I noticed they dropped their minimum to 50 units now, and I bet they'd give you a quote. I'm not personally interested now that I've built some econowaves and have parts for another pair.
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If the speakers are available, I am thinking doing the "Climax Avec 4 Bangers" instead of regular a Climax. I am going to put 4 LA6-MBs and a tweeter in one enclosure. However, I am sure it is worth or not by doing that way. Paul may know this better since this is his design (and of course I don't any thing about the drivers and the xcross over).
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Here's the first paragraph of the document:
"This design shares a couple of major features of the SEXy Speaker. Both are high-efficiency
small boxes with no deep bass, meant to be combined with a pair of commercial powered subwoofers for a complete full-range system. In this way, low-power SET amplifiers can be used in a system of modest size. Both are offered as designs for non-commercial DIY construction."
As you see, the LA6-MB was not used below about 125Hz. And there is a reason - its linear excursion is quite limited. Actually, in the first version we did run it in a larger ported box to provide bass to about 50Hz in theory. It never sounded like there was any deep bass though, and it would break up on loud bass passages - a clear sign that this driver is not suited for the deep bass.
If anyone does not want to use a powered subwoofer, it would be perfectly practical to use a woofer, or an array of several woofers, with a passive or active crossover between them. An array of four more conventional 6" or 8" woofers running 88-89dB individually would provide enough efficiency to take care of the baffle step effect, and such woofers could easily have the larger excursion and softer suspension necessary for decent bass. In fact, this could make a miniature version of the big system now running in DocB's listening room.
As far as I know no one has done this, but another use of this driver is as a side or back speaker in a multi-way home theater. These auxiliary speakers deliver most of their effect even if they have no high treble or deep bass, and the LA6-MB in the Climax box would deliver 125Hz to 5kHz quite well - no tweeter, no crossover, just a speaker in a box. That bandwidth is very well balanced, neither shrill nor boomy. Ought to work fine with iPods and table radios as well - anywhere a cheap, decent general purpose speaker is OK.
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I'm getting ready to install the Selenium tweeter in my straight 8's and was going to play around the mods described in the Climax pdf. I'm looking for any advice on the bullnose molding mod. Does anyone have an pictures of how they install that? The front bezel is raised and I'm curious how to get it to mount flush..
Thanks in advance..
Tim
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You don't need to worry about flush mounting. Just use 1/2" quarter round on each side of the slot and then put 1/2" felt over the whole upper front baffle, clear out to the edges. That will sit flush with the quarter round and the raised flange parts will not be that noticeable under the felt. PJ showed strips of felt in his drawing because we were considering materials cost if we did this as a kit. But for a little more money you can buy 12" squares of felt from Mcmaster Carr and use one piece of felt with a hole cut in it for the slot and quarter round.
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That makes perfect sense now, thanks for the quick reply. I will post my results with the different mods and how this goes with the ol' reliable S8.
Thanks
Tim
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My recent activity related to my Climax speakers.
I recently get a pair of A4 Advent speakers from GoodWill. After I refoamed the woofer and listened to them for a while, I can't figure out why they donate these to GoodWill. They are very musical. My first impression is WOW and WOW. Then I get into listening session comparing Climax and the Advent A4 speakers.
There pros and cons on both side. Climax is lacking of bass and the Adv A4 does. The Adv A4 is lacking of details just a little bit behind the Climax etc..
I have gotten suggestions from asylum users to double the Adv A4 (2 Adv A4s on one side) if I want to mod them. Then my conclusion from this is that I will put Climax on the top of the Adv A4 speaker instead.
The sound is so so much better with this combination. This will bring the CLIMAX to another level. I am very very happy and sastified with this configuration. I recommend this is a much if you do have the ADV A4 speakers.
I used to have the Climax in my bedroom. Now I can have 'Climax' with Adv A4 in a different room. I called this 'Advent Climax'. Let's fun begin (and my wife likes it thought).
My gears: Onkyo M-506 RS (Reference Signature), Samsung Universal player (DVD818 or something (can't remember)) with heavily mods, Foreplay II with all mods.
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I worked at the shop in Atlanta where "The Double Advent System" was first demonstrated back in the 70s so I am very familiar with this set up. The double Advents, of any sort, can place a hard impedance on the amplifier driving it. The Climax is intended for SET amplifiers and has a much "gentler" impedance curve. The Onkyo seems to be a SS power house. I would expect in the comparison that the Advent speakers would lack "finesse."
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Just a quick note, since Grainger's post gives me an excuse to do a bit of myth-busting.
The Climax actually has a wild impedance curve. with a very high impedance around the crossover frequency and above. The thing is, it was designed around an SET amp with damping factor of 2 to 3. It will sound a little recessed with a high-damping solid state amp. The impedance does not drop much below the nominal - that is always going to be a difficult load for an SET - but high impedances are not a problem by themselves.
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Climax is lacking of bass
Just to clarify, do you mean that the tweeter/midrange combination is lacking bass? No argument there. The Climax "system" was of course designed to be the Climax cabinets in combination with subwoofers below 100Hz since the tweeter/midwoofer combo rolls off at 12dB/octave at that point.
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My point was inaccurately stated. I shouldn't have assumed the impedance curve didn't dip to 2 ohms. I'm aware that most speakers have very high impedance magnitudes and angles at resonances. But my point was that the Climax were intended for SET amps. That is what I meant by benign.
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My point was inaccurately stated. I shouldn't have assumed the impedance curve didn't dip to 2 ohms. I'm aware that most speakers have very high impedance magnitudes and angles at resonances. But my point was that the Climax were intended for SET amps. That is what I meant by benign.
Thanks, Grainger. I think I knew what your point was, but there's so much misconception out there about speaker impedance and SETs that I just grabbed the excuse to put my thoughts down.
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I think the proper way or the correct term to say it is that the Climax has just a little bit less bass than the ADV A4's instead of saying 'lacking of bass'.
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I think the proper way or the correct term to say it is that the Climax has just a little bit less bass than the ADV A4's instead of saying 'lacking of bass'.
Haha! No, let's be clear - the Climax by itself has no bass. None.
Seriously, it rolls off at 100Hz and does not even have the "hump" at that frequency than many minimonitors have to fake it. It doesn't even try. The subwoofer is part of the design. The whole idea is that high-efficiency bass takes a huge cabinet and very expensive woofers - it's economically unsuitable for SETs. So let's get a big solid-state amp and inefficient but small speaker (i.e. a sub) for the deep bass, and run the rest on an SET. The ear is much more sensitive in the midrange, which basically means the vocal range - we are social animals and genetically equipped to detect subtle shadings of voices, after all!
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All I can say is that until you've listened to the ADV A4 then you know "just a little bit less than" means to you. Another difference is that the ADV A4 (woofer) is doing really good job when I play it loud. It is clear, punchy and dynamic. It filled up where the Climax's weakness.
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All I can say is that until you've listened to the ADV A4 then you know "just a little bit less than" means to you. Another difference is that the ADV A4 (woofer) is doing really good job when I play it loud. It is clear, punchy and dynamic. It filled up where the Climax's weakness.
I don't think I understand. Do you know that the Climax is incomplete without the (sub) woofer, which you don't mention? Do you know the Advent is a full range speaker?
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I didn't know the Adv A4 is a full range speaker except that it is a 2-way speaker. To make it clear regarding the Climax and Adv a4 is that the Adv A4 woofer is better than the Climax woofer. It is dynamic, clear, and punchy. The Climax tweeter is better than the Adv A4 tweeter. It is clear and it has more details or resolution. You can use/listen the Climax but you still need sub woofer to be a complete set. I use the Climax with my KLH 12" subwoofer but they are not as good as the Climax and Adv A4 combination.
One thing I have not tried is to put Climax upside down and on the top of the Adv A4 (tweeters of the Adv A4 and Climax are closed each other). According to my research, they stack the Adv A4 speaker on the top of each other (2 speakers on each side, the top one is upside down) and they are sounding better than stacking them without turning it upside down. Some people replace the Adv A4 tweeter with something else like horn type tweeter etc.. I tried the Climax with Adv A4 combination and it turned out that they sounding better and more lively musical.
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I didn't know the Adv A4 is a full range speaker except that it is a 2-way speaker. To make it clear regarding the Climax and Adv a4 is that the Adv A4 woofer is better than the Climax woofer. . . You can use/listen the Climax but you still need sub woofer to be a complete set. . . .
You have completely missed the point and seem determined to stay this way. To make it clear, the Climax as you use them has no woofer. It is intended to be a three way speaker system, tweeter, mid (not really woofer) and a sub woofer. You missed, or didn't read Paul Joppa's response #18 above. The editing and emphasis, above and below, is by me:
. . . Haha! No, let's be clear - the Climax by itself has no bass. None.
. . . The subwoofer is part of the design. . . .
I think most of this thread should be deleted as it has no application.
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A while back I was able to convince Parts Express to order a ribbon tweeter that they no longer stocked. They were very good about it and may be open to adding the driver to their list of Eminence products, never know.
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I have been doing some tinkering with my S8 speakers and the ST324 tweeter and wanted to refresh my memory on the crossover from the Climax design. I can't seem to get any links to the pdf to work or find the design anywhere. Could someone point me in a direction?
Thanks
Tim
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https://web.archive.org/web/20140209153406/http://www.bottlehead.com/climax/climax.pdf
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The original (without sub) is still sitting in my basement. I haven't actually hooked it up since I got it, and PB is building me some boxes for another new design ... so if anyone wants a Climax let me know! :^)
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Great...Thanks for the link!
Tim