Bottlehead Forum
Other Gear => Phono => Topic started by: xjb123 on June 10, 2010, 12:25:03 PM
-
I just picked up a used VPI HW-16.5 record cleaner. What a great machine! I've been manually cleaning records for years with a DIY rig I made that uses my wet/dry vac. It got the job done but was a chore to set up each time. Wish I had purchased the "real" record cleaner a lot earlier....
Anyway, check out this video I made showing off my new toy:
www.knoodle.com/go/935 (http://www.knoodle.com/go/935)
I'd be interested to hear other people's experiences cleaning records!
-
I myself use the Gem Dandy. Basically you set the thing up in the sink, soak the records down with cleaning solution, and then pressure wash them. Definitely more messy than the VPI but very effective.
-
To enter the fray I bought a VPI 16.5 back in the early 90s for $300 from Elusive Disk (saw the shipping label yesterday) when they were having a moving sale.
I have tried a bunch of cleaning fluids and have settled on the AIVS #15 for a cleaner and ultra pure water rinse. This combo was suggested by Jim Pendleton, owner of Osage Audio. It is the best I have used since 1972. It does what I would call an amazing job.
Jim sells a three step cleaner and I'm trying not to find out that it works better.
-
Wondering how the VPI unit stacks up against the Nitty Gritty (say the base 1.0 model, realizing there's a level of manual operation with the latter machine). I need something beyond my D4 brush, but not interested in spending a ton of $$ on a fancy machine. Not a big fan of creating a mess either. I'd welcome suggestions - just starting to research this topic.
-
Paully has a NG. And I have a 16.5. I am pretty sure the 16.5 has higher vacuum. I find that having a platter to work on, scrub, and rotate the LP is extremely handy, for me. They can be had for $350 used on that auction site if you watch and wait.
Sadly the price increases on the 16.5 has made it hard for many guys to purchase one. I wouldn't buy at today's price. I caught a sale over 18 years ago. Yet, I don't think that there is there a vacuum machine out there with a platter that costs less.
There are quite a few threads on AudioKarma.org that describe making a home made, wet/vacuum vacuum cleaning machines using an old turntable. The result is a pretty low cost. You might look there.
-
i've been using the machine from okki nokki with good results. internally, it's the same thing as a VPI 16.5 or a clearaudio smart matrix, but at a lower price point. worth a look, but you'll never be fooled into thinking it's on a par with a Keith Monks Machine...
-
Looks like the Okki Nokki is about $615 USD - a bit more than a VPI 16.5. Can't seem to find a US sales channel either. Love the name though....
Will need to keep researching this topic. I like thought of building a DIY machine, but not sure I want to invest the time and effort in this case.
-
That puts the Okki Nokki at $65 more than list on the 16.5 which is made in the US.
And now I think to mention that there is a VIP 16 that preceded the 16.5. When buying used don't get one of these. It is easy to identify, the vacuum tube is mounted to the lid.
-
Thanks Grainger. I'll need to continue my research. This is one of those "buy it and be done with it" sort of purchases, so want to make a good decision. All the input is helpful.
-
I have a Nitty Gritty and have seen and used Grainger's VPI 16.5. I doubt the 16.5 gets the records any cleaner and I would disagree (very politely) that it has a lesser vacuum. But the 16.5 is much nicer to use and it is much easier to spread various liquid on. The motorized turntable is a large bonus and it just makes cleaning records so much easier. I haven't spent the money on a 16.5 because the Nitty Gritty does a fine job. But when funds permit I fully intend on getting one. If I was buying for the first time I would rather have the 16.5 if I could afford it.
We did build a gem dandy ourselves. Haven't used it since we built it. It is just too much trouble for the same results (IMHO). Other than that, I don't know any other cleaning machines. Check over on the vinyl asylum, this has been discussed in depth and often.
-
Talking to Grainger and reading up, the VPI may indeed have a stronger vacuum. Wasn't my impression but I have nothing to back it up other than my subjective experience and he has photos of the vacuum motor on the VPI which does look hefty.
By the way, do read up on the Gem Dandy over on vinyl asylum plus other methods. The people who have tried the Gem have gone gaga over it, I just wasn't one of them. I stick by my assessment that vacuum methods are easier to use and effective, and here I think Grainger would agree, but other people have different opinions and you should check them out.
-
Paul, Paully, and I assembled a Gem Dandy clone after a trip to Home Depot for a small piece of change, under $40. It was a fraction of the retail price. He can give you a parts list. But I wasn't that impressed. It leaves the LPs to drip dry or you have to use a towel to dry them. Neither the NG nor the VPI leave the LP wet. I think both the NG and VIP suck stuff out of the grooves that has become suspended when cleaning. That makes the Gem Dandy slower and much less effective. So the Gem Dandy would rank below NG and VPI for that reason in my opinion.
We all have opinions, and tend to like what we have since we invested in it. It is the cognitive dissonance theory.
-
A used VPI machine and some good fluid is all you need. I've got an early 16.5 without a drain tube and it does the job great. They are around for $300 or less; you just have to keep your eye out for one.
-
Don't underestimate the manual Spin Clean machine. Google it. I just purchased one (actually, my wife and kids did for my B'day), and at $80 more or less, it's remarkable. I'm not saying it'll do the same as a vacuum machine, but I can buy a lot of bargain basement $1 specials for the $400 plus I saved.
The albums I'm mostly buying these days are quite dirty Goodwill specials - dirty enough to gunk up my AT440MLa stylus on one or two songs, and that's AFTER a hand cleaning and use of anti-static brush or gun. But after cleaning with the Spin Clean, I don't get any stylus buildup after playing 10-20 of these formerly dirty LPs. Both the previously hand-cleaned and ones I haven't touched are remarkably clean. Except for some extremely dirty ones, the Spin Clean reduces surface noise to almost nothing, quite a dark background. I simply can't believe the difference.
OK, just my $.43 for those on a tight budget. It'd be interesting to see a side-by-side comparison of Spin Clean and NG or VPI or the others.
-
I have a KAB EV-1 that I bought, it works quite well and has a good price point. All manual, and you must provide the vacuum cleaner. I like it.
For the really NASTY NASTY stuff, Titebond II premium wood glue. Works wonders (after cleaning with the vacuum machine).
-
It'd be interesting to see a side-by-side comparison of Spin Clean and NG or VPI or the others.
I have a friend who did this. Cleaned the LP with the NG, then recorded it to CD on his TASCAM digital recorder. Then cleaned the same LP with his Spin Clean. He still uses his NG today, but only as the drier for his LPs that were just cleaned on the Spin Clean. I have heard the playback of the NG version and the Spin Clean version, there is no comparison! The Spin Clean was the hands down winner.
Cheers, Alan
-
I have heard the playback of the NG version and the Spin Clean version, there is no comparison! The Spin Clean was the hands down winner.
The effectiveness of the Nitty Gritty depends a lot on the fluid used. I don't know the current NG fluids but the orginals were less then the best. I currently use a VPI and/or MoFi "Super Deep" and rinse. For truely dirty used LPs I augment the NG with preliminary wet clean with Disc Doctor brushes.
-
Hey thanks, Alan. I'm continually impressed with my Spin Clean. I still hand dry the records, but it is remarkable how clean they end up. BTW, I was just given a nearly complete collection of American release Beatles albums with several duplicates. I may try playing one or two without cleaning and recording them, then re-recording after the cleaning.
Wanderer, seems like a lot of trouble to go through for a machine costing upwards of 400 clams when a spin clean does the trick for under 80. I was going to DIY a vacuum cleaner using an old table, but now that I have the Spin Clean it seems superfluous.
Cheers!
-
Wanderer, seems like a lot of trouble to go through for a machine costing upwards of 400 clams when a spin clean does the trick for under 80. I was going to DIY a vacuum cleaner using an old table, but now that I have the Spin Clean it seems superfluous.
Don't know the Spin Clean other then reputation so not commenting there.
My point was that the original standard Nitty Gritty fluids were not the best - different fluids may change the results. The NG is just a drier - the brushes and the fluids really do the cleaning.
-
It'd be interesting to see a side-by-side comparison of Spin Clean and NG or VPI or the others.
I have a friend who did this. Cleaned the LP with the NG, then recorded it to CD on his TASCAM digital recorder. Then cleaned the same LP with his Spin Clean. He still uses his NG today, but only as the drier for his LPs that were just cleaned on the Spin Clean. I have heard the playback of the NG version and the Spin Clean version, there is no comparison! The Spin Clean was the hands down winner.
Cheers, Alan
can't help but wonder how the recordings would have sounded if the order was reversed. could show the NG should be the drier. in other words, this type of test only proves that the sound is better after two cleanings than the sound after one cleaning. to prove a difference in the two processes, you would need two records of the same recording in the same condition and then listen to each one before and after each was washed once with each of the devices. dunno how using the sound of the unwashed recordings could be used to determine the records are in the same condition, either qualitatively or quantitatively. even if you could, i don't know if easy-to-remove substances sound the same or different compared to more difficult-to-remove substances.
btw, i have no interest in either machine, just an interest in scientific method. maybe i could apply for a grant to do the study. :^)
-
Alan,
The information is interesting and intriguing (had to use spell check on that). I keep hearing good things about the Spin Clean. The Michael Fremer recommendation, known vinyl nut (that is not an insult), carries quite a lot of weight with me.
To cpaul, if you haven't any first hand knowledge you don't know what they can do. I have not commented on cleaners I have not used. You don't really know if a VIP or other cleaners more expensive than yours are more effective. The experiment described by Alan is not conclusive. The reverse needs to be done to make a conclusion.
I also wonder if two washings with any cleaner is better than one. That is what is the crux of Bob's comment.
Years and years before the Spin Clean was made I bought a VPI 16.5 for $300. A "moving sale" from one of the vinyl selling biggies. So that boat has sailed and I'm pretty happy, see my previous posts in this thread.
I would like a shoot out between the Spin Clean and my VIP/AIVS (sold by Osage Audio) cleaning fluids. Let me suggest 3 LPs where side 1 is cleaned by the Spin Clean and side 2 is performed by me. I have already done this for a member at AK and he is looking for a VPI at a reasonable price now.
-
FWIW, I bought a VPI 16.5 (drain tube out the back) on E-Bay and like it very much. It is my only experience with vacuum record cleaners, so can't say it is better than the others, but it really does wonders to those $1 Goodwill (I have a few of them now).
-
So no one thinks I'm specifically bad-mouthing VPI or any of the other premium cleaners, that wasn't my intent. Indeed I have no experience with them. Also, as a trained scientist (as well as other things), I don't view Alan's post as scientific, and I'm sure he didn't intend it that way. My comment was directed at the idea that in order to get one such machine to work it MIGHT take two passes to clean a record on it. But of course, on a re-read, that wasn't what Wanderer said.
As for a shootout, I'd bet that 10 or 20 seemingly similarly dirty LPs cleaned by both machines would give a pretty good, albeit non-scientific, picture of how they work. My guess is that they will both do a good job, and perhaps that's enough for many of us. But the Spin Clean can only clean the entire record (both sides) at a go, so a side 1 vs side 2 shootout won't work.
Cheers,
Carl
-
I wasn't thinking about this. You are spot on there.
. . . But the Spin Clean can only clean the entire record (both sides) at a go, so a side 1 vs side 2 shootout won't work.
Cheers,
Carl
Your earlier post says that the Spin Clean "does the trick for under 80." But that is without the knowledge of what others do. Yes, the Spin Clean might do a good job, but it might not be "the" job. I'm an engineer, well versed in the scientific method.
-
Agreed, Grainger, and that's what I tried to say with my followup. What's good enough for me might not be good enough for others. What I like about the Spin Clean is that it does an incredibly good job at a much lower price than the vacuum machines. AND there's a suggestion it might do equally well. Not scientific, and one certainly can't draw that conclusion from what was posted alone, but I'm most interested in those observations that suggest digging deeper and challenging widely accepted notions (such as having to pay more to get more - something Bottlehead seems to question with virtually all it's kits). I've considered building an ultrasonic LP cleaner based on lots of discussions on other boards, but in the end, with my setup (Thorens TD 165 with AT440MLa and Dual 1219 w/ADC XLM Mk2 Improved), I can hear no surface noise on most records after using Spin Clean (scratches aside). I can only imagine that my thoughts might change if I were into high resolution MC cartridges and better setup overall.
(right now, these TTs feed into either a HagTech Bugle followed by Quickie or Yaoin M12-B (phono and preamp), amped by a Marsh A200 into Vandersteen 1Cs)
Carl
-
Yeah, I suggested it (Spin Clean) to a guy who lives a few miles away from me about a month ago. It is THE bang for the buck cleaner if it is only half as good as reported.
-
I picked up a spin clean used a while back for around $20 and tried it out. Seemed to clean records quite well but I thought that the bristles seemed a bit too stiff. Granted that assessment was completely subjective and I don't believe it damaged any of my records, it just didn't give me a warm fuzzy feeling. Could also have been a previous iteration. I see on the site they are now selling the MKII. Don't know if the one I had was a MKI or II or what changed between them if anything. I do know that I gave it to my friend Pagi and he has never mentioned having any problems with it.
I still like my GEM Dandy. Might pick up another 16.5 for nights I'm feeling extra lazy though.
-
um, how did you build that?!
-
Arno,
Dutch? Maybe that is why I couldn't understand the audio track in the video. It sounded like it was playing at 2/3 speed too!
-
Arno,
Dutch? Maybe that is why I couldn't understand the audio track in the video. It sounded like it was playing at 2/3 speed too!
LOL....nope...that is the way Tom Waits always sounds ;-)
-
Just to add my 2 cents here. I bought, I think what was the basic model Nitty Gritty a decade ago. It was on sale at AA for what I think was between 100 and 150 at the time. Everything is manual and there is no platter, just the disc. Nothing you couldnt do by hand with the exception of the vacuum. I cant compare it to anything else but it works wonders compared to just using the a Discwasher type method. I was really impressed by how well it worked on my old vinyl in terms of ticks and pops and keeping the stylus from gunking up. But it's effectiveness is all in how you clean the records and it is LOUD. Rather than the included velour type bursh I use these microfiber pads which seem to do a much better job of getting into the grooves withou any damage. I also was using a formula for a home made cleaning solution that did seem a little better than the available Nitty Gritty solution available at the time. However, the packaged solution did seem to work fine with a little more work (and I still have an unopened bottle of it). Im sure that the more expensive machines work better and they are definitely faster and more convienent. But that little machine does a good job of sucking the records dry and it still works great. I wonder if using the spin clean to clean the records and then using my old Nitty Gritty to vacuum them dry would work well and make less work of it too. I'll have to look into this.
I think that a manual machine is a worthwhile investment for those on a budget. It was easily the best purchase I've made in terms of LP cleaning.
But ... Did I mention that it is LOUD :-)
Question for anyone who knows ... is anyone still making a budget vacuum machine under 200 these days? Because even at the sub 150 dollar mark, that machine is way overpriced for what you got. Not in terms of effectiveness but in terms of it basically being a wooden box with a brush a manually rotatable puck and a small internal vacuum.
-
For a vacuum machine in that price range you will have to make one yourself. I have seen guys make a vacuum pickup out of a painting pad and a wet/dry vacuum. The combination on any turntable would dry just about any LP once it has been cleaned.
BTW, I also believe you should rinse after cleaning.
-
Well, thankfully Im all set. I cant believe that someone doesnt make something like my old basic model for about the same price. I know things have gone up but for what it is, the price would still be inflated today.
-
I just watched the video of the OP and I find it interesting how careful he is about using a variety of techniques to clean the record, yet he then places it carelessly on the platter for the second side, sliding it across the cork mat. Also sticking his hands inside the "rice paper" sleeve, wiping his fingers (which always have oil on them) along the brush AND the velour vacuum tube. And his rinse is being distributed by a "soapy" brush, thereby undoing the work of the rinse.
So careful yet at the same time so careless. Not that I judge him. I too find it hard to be so careful. But in the end, some of the handling simply weakens the careful cleaning that he argues is needed. That's partly why I think so many different approaches end up resulting in such similar results. Unless one is truly obsessive about cleaning methods, there's only so far they can go toward cleaning records.
-
As my mother used to say, "Youth is wasted on the young."
I like the word compulsive. I'm compulsive and I'm an engineer. You want your engineers to be compulsive and your surgeons to be perfectionists.
Stepping down from the soap box now...
-
Look at this
Record Cleaner (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCIJosmWkA4&feature=player_detailpage)
I do know this is for sale but I am not sure how to reach the creator of it.
Cheers, Alan
-
booangler, that looks pretty cool and easy to build. I've got an old turntable up in the attic and a wet/dry vac that I was about to throw away. I think I've just found a project for them both. I'm a chunk of PVC pipe away from having an awesome record cleaner.
That was some good fishing.
-
Hello,
My first post, looking forward to receiving my Crack next week. I also use the VPI 16.5, I have modified mine though. I added a 4.5" ventilation fan with a switch, allows me to clean longer. The spindle doesn't even get hot anymore! I also replaced the cork mats with a piece of 60 Duro neoprene. Less chance of contaminating a clean side than with the cork, and you can clean it. IMHO the most important component of a RCM is the cleaning fluid. I have tried everything, including DIY. The best I have found, hands down, is the AI 3 step system from Osage Audio. It uses an enzymatic fluid, cleaning fluid and ultra pure water rinse, I don't purchase the water as I have access to medical-grade reagent water at work. I use one brush and suction tube for each step. The records end up completely quiet, so quiet it will reveal problems in your system you have not heard before. At last count I have around 2000 records in my collection, so cleaning is very important to me.
Cheers,
Shawn
-
Shawn,
Sounds like you have read several threads by Mark and me over at AudioKarma. Mark even had a special platter built for him and put the neoprene on it.
-
Well, thankfully Im all set. I cant believe that someone doesnt make something like my old basic model for about the same price. I know things have gone up but for what it is, the price would still be inflated today.
I, too, have an early NG 1 and approximatly the same machine is available but for circa $300 street price. List price is nearer $400. I agree it does a fine job for clearing and agree it seems a tad high priced. However Nitty Gritty is very good about support and very responsive when contacted.
There is a machine for circa $160 but you must provide the vacuum. Rumor says Nitty Gritty makes it for KAB.
http://www.kabusa.com/frameset.htm?/rcleaner.htm
...and if your NG1 does not have roller bearings under the platter consider the KAB "Gliding Platter" upgrade.
-
That roller bearing is an absolute must if you have a Nitty Gritty. I have a roller bearing and sometimes the record would stick when I am turning it due to the downward pressure (without the roller bearing it was much, much worse). I have taken to turning the record by its sides while vacuuming and forgoing putting the big plastic cap on the record at all. It just makes turning the record that much easier and smoother.
-
Hey Grainger,
Yes, I have seen both yours and Mark's mods. Alot of inspiration at Audio Karma, thanks. Unlike Mark, I wasn't willing to go as far as having a custom platter made, his is great though. I had a KAB record clamp sittin around, so I butchered it and mounted a VPI clamp in it and covered the record contact surface with some softer neoprene, so much easier than the little stock clamp. FYI, or anyones for that matter, I found I could buy the much cheaper replacement brushes for the auto VPI models and just make handles out of some decent scrap wood. About half the price of the 16.5 replacements.
Cheers,
Shawn
-
Shawn,
I use both the stock center knurled screw and the stock HW-19 old model Plexiglas clamp made to be used with the knurled screw. If there is an warp in the LP it is minimized at worse and flattened at best on both the HW-19 and the 16.5.
I talked to Jim Pendleton, a real gentleman, at Osage and he suggested the one step cleaner (#15) followed by the Ultra Pure rinse. It has been the most effective cleaning routine I have ever used. I started with the original, early 70s, herringbone fabric Diskwasher, a Preener and a Dust Bug. I still have a Revox Groove Clean, copy of the Dust Bug, that is used all the time.
-
Thanks Grainger,
I will give the one step method a try, would save me some cash. I bought a copy of the Dust Bug as well, I love the thing. We get alot of wind coming around the Mountains and through the valley I live in here in Colorado so it tends to be really dusty. We have a Millipore reagent grade water machine at the Hospital lab I work in, and they don't mind if I grab a gallon here or there so that saves me on the utltra-pure rinse. Plus I perform the maintenance on the machine, including a culture for microbes weekly, which satisfies my obsessive, compulsive mind of it's purity. My girlfriend accused me of having OCD, I told her I would but the acronym letters were not in alphabetical order! haha...
Cheers,
Shawn Prigmore
-
I just go with the "Compulsive" part and try not to get obsessive. Otherwise I would be using the three step AIVS cleaning system that MarkD51 uses.
-
A general observation about cleaning records and me. I started in the early 70s with the first Diskwasher made. Not serial number 000001, the first generation Diskwasher given to me by Ben VanDerKree who was their rep in Atlanta and I was selling audio gear. I went on from there to Preeners, Parastats, RWB (record wash brush) and Dustbug from Cecil B. Watts. Then 8-10 different cleaners that were equally inefficient at getting the stuff out of the grooves.
In about 1992 I bought a VIP 16.5 with their fluid. It didn't clean that well but was the best so far. The VPI 17 was available but I wanted to control the cleaning fluid application and the 17 doesn't apply the rinse water. You HAVE to rinse the LP after cleaning.
The 17 is not for me at all. But the 16.5 was as much automation as I needed or wanted. And it really vacuums the LP!
I'm using the AIVS #15 (posted before) as a complete cleaner and the Ultra Pure Rinse. I have never gotten LPs this clean before. It is very effective. It isn't cheap and I'm a noted cheapskate. But it is worth the price.
No association with them at all.
http://www.audiointelligent.com/products.htm
-
Hello Grainger,
Just noticed your post. I wanted to let you know, as per your previous recommendation I ordered the # 15 from Osage Audio. It works great and will be much cheaper and less time consuming than the 3 step AIVS system I have been using. I plan on keeping the 3 step around for the tough to clean used discs I sometimes pick up. I agree with the manual fluid application, you get a real feel for using just the right amount pretty quick. Finally finished my first Bottlehead build, a Crack, and am enjoying listening to some of my favorite vinyl with it. Hearing some things that I never knew were there before. I am thinking about building a Seduction or Eos next, depending on the money situation. What sort of Audio gear did you sell? Back in 1986, during my first year of college I got a job with a Hi-End dealer here in Colorado, we sold alot of British stuff, Linn, Rotel, Rega and so on. That's where I developed my vinyl addiction, spent all the money I earned on gear and records. That's when I bought my old tried and true Sondek LP12, wow it's hard to believe that deck is 26 years old now, how the time flies as you get older.
Cheers,
Shawn Prigmore
-
Ugh, I have never tried to list all the brands I sold. It covered a time from the late 60s to the late 70s. So, let's see, I sold Dual, Benjaman Miracord, Garrard, BSR, AR, PE, Philips, Thorens and Linn Sondek. That is just the tables, I may have skipped a few.
I sold Panasonic, Sony, Harmon-Kardon, Sansiu, Pioneer, Rotel, Phase Linear, AR, Yamaha, Marantz, Crown, Audio Research, Dayton Wright and SAE electronics.
Speakers included some Philips store brand, good for the price, Pioneer, AR, KLH, Infinity, SAE, Marantz, Crown Magnaplanar and Dayton Wright. Tape decks were Sansui, Pioneer, Advent, Tandberg, Revox and Crown.
I'll have to come back to this when I remember more.
-
So I finally got around to cleaning a batch of records with the Spin-Clean that I bought ages ago.
Results? Pretty disappointing. I chose about 25 records ranging from new to various states of used, some pretty dirty. I did the newer, cleaner ones first, and saved the dirty ones for last. The device is easy to use, and I think I followed directions closely.
But in almost every case (including the new records) the sounds (mostly crackle) that I had hoped would be eliminated are still audible. Did I do something wrong? How could this thing get such great reviews if it doesn't produce results?
I should note that the water I used (distilled, of course) was murky when I finished, and there was some dirt deposit at the bottom. Clearly gunk was removed. But it didn't improve the sound.
The water I used was pretty cold, so maybe I ought to use room temperature water next time, but I can't imagine that making much of a difference.
-
I bought one of those Spin-Clean things too. Didn't do much for my LP's, either, except make some of them noisier than they were before cleaning. Bizarre. I don't know if this is due to a) removing gunk that might have been covering up small scratches in the groove wall, making for more "detailed" noise, or b) the solution/soap not being removed from the grooves upon drying. Maybe it's leaving some residue? In any case, I think the sucker is about to go back on eBay.
FWIW, I also had a Nitty Gritty at one point and was also let down. Maybe the noise problems on some of our favorite platters have little to do with dust, and more to do with scratches and/or imperfections in the pressing (or quality of the vinyl used therein)? Records sure are finicky things....
-
Angelo has hit upon the biggest problem I saw with the Spin Clean, it doesn't rinse the LP. Maybe the new RCA version of the Diskwasher would do better.
-
Im a still constantly amazed at how well that cheap Vacuum record cleaner that I bought 10 years ago still works. If the groove is damaged, nothing will fix it. But most of my LP's are from the late 70's and 80's. They were never cleaned back then with anything but a discwasher or AT brush with the fluid. That method seemed to work ok back then but after returning to Vinyl about 10 years ago, I wanted something better. The cheapest machine I found back then was AA's Record Doctor which I think was made by Nitty Gritty for AA. My wife got it for me for Christmas about 10 years ago, on sale at a little over $100 if memory serves. Running them through the machine really worked wonders on the vast majority of those LP's. I was truly impressed.
Now, it's even more evident with headphone listening and the machine has been getting a workout lately on many LP's that I never did clean or cant remember cleaning.
I used a Technics SL-D2 through most of my earlier vinyl years and am really pleased with how great a condition my LP collection is in. It was a basic TT but was apparently kind to the LP's and I was careful with them back then. When I read about people not getting results from using the record cleaning machines I just have to wonder whether it is technique, the cleaning solution or groove damage. If that Record Doctor gave up the ghost I would probably purchase the KAB EV-1 unit that requires you use your own canister vacuum as I dont have the budget for an expensive RCM. That unit should work as well as the one I have. Grainger is right, you absolutely have to do a rinse. I still have a full bottle of AA labeled "Super Cleaner II" and that's the only pre-made Ive been using for 10 years. I doubt they still make it and I cant recall whether it was well regarded of not. But that has worked great for me along with a distilled water rinse. I would think that many of the popular cleaning solutions sold today would work atleast as well.
The Spin Clean has been well recommended. But Im not sure anything takes the place of being able to vacuum the fluid and RINSE water from the grooves.
Im not so sure that the RCM's actually made most of my LP's sound "better" from a purely sonic perspective unless they have been gunked up. What I am referring to is the noise (ie, "ticks" and "pops") and getting rid of much of that makes for a better listening experience. That's what the RCM has done so well for me to have me so pleased with it's results. But it wont for those due to actual groove damage.
Anyway, best vinyl accessory purchase bar none for me. There have been very few "noisy" LP's in my collection that it hasnt improved, most of them very noticeably.
-
I have a Spinclean and had noise problems after cleaning the records. I cut back on the solution a little and used distilled water and the noise went away. To help with the drying, I picked up a microfiber hand mitt from Walmart . It works much better than the supplied cloths.
-
I can try doing a rinse session with only distilled water. But I still don't understand how the reviews can be so positive and I'm not getting results. It just doesn't make sense. I can understand there being maybe a little noise left over, but the records shouldn't sound the same. This may not be a vacuum cleaner, but it's been pretty well vetted.
Maybe I should send a few to you, Laudanum, if you wouldn't mind (I'll provide return shipping), to see if it's my records. But honestly, I'm trying a how slew of records (I have nearly 500), and not really noticing much.
I'll try a new batch today, with a rinse session, and throw in a few of the ones I did yesterday, too, to see what happens.
-
I think Laudanum has a vacuum machine and not the Spin Clean, so while he (she?) might get records cleaner, it won't help you understand more about your Spin Clean, Denti.
I too have a spin clean, and I find it does a remarkable job cleaning my records. But much of what I get now is Goodwill specials which tend to be VERY dirty. It makes a big difference for me on the records I'm cleaning, but I make no warranties about the experience of others. AND...I can't say whether it does a better or worse job than a Nitty Gritty or other such vacuum RCM.
In fact, your comments make me wonder even more if I'm really missing something important in my music by only using my Spin Clean. I do often use a zerostat and carbon brush, and maybe that helps. Wish I had a spare $500 or so to get a really nice vacuum RCM. Or maybe I'll try a DIY. Anyone want to try cleaning a few records for me on a vacuum machine so I can see for myself?
Carl
-
I use a zero-stat and brush too, which help with static and light dust. The guy from Spin-Clean has been very helpful via email. He claims, however, that in 35 years and 75,000 units sold they've never had one return. Hard to believe.
-
Since the basic premise of the Spin-Clean is at least logically sound, I wonder if using a better cleaning fluid in the distilled water and ditching the gauze-like cloths provided with the unit are the key to getting decent performance? What are some commonly-available LP cleaning solutions that are known to do a good job cleaning while leaving no residue?
-
I use a zero-stat and brush too, which help with static and light dust. . . .
In winter I have a humidifier in my listening room running 24/7 unless I'm listening. It eliminates the need for the Zerostat that I bought when they were new and I was selling them.
I use a 3" Staticmaster before play 12 months out of the year.
http://www.amstat.com/solutions/staticmaster.html
-
I have one of those spin clean units and I love it, I had to use a soft cloth (similar to a eyeglass cleaning cloth) to lightly dry then I put it in a drying rack I made from a spindle sized horizontal post with proper sized thick washers to use as spacers between records. All in all it's a great unit although I still occasionally use my old nitty gritty unit.
-
So how much crackle is inherent in vinyl, no matter how clean? Sure, this depends on the pressing, but on average will one always he crackling in between tracks, no matter how clean, if the volume is turned up?
I'm wondering if my complaints about the Spin Clean come from too high expectations for real quiet vinyl.
-
Even old vinyl can be silent. No crackles no pops, no background noise at all.
Once there is a grain of something in the groove it might deform the groove and leave a noise even if removed. I've probably posted here about using wood glue to deep clean LPs but if not here is a link: http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=99837
This can remove or reduce the magnitude of impulse noise, ticks and pops. The link includes a number of video links.
The routine is to squeeze out a spiral of glue on a slow turning LP, I use Titebond II on my 16.5 cleaner. Then smooth it out with a credit card and allow to dry. When dry pick the edge at the outer perimeter of the LP and then put painter's tape on and pull. In the winter it can be brittle. All of the glue can be removed with the painter's tape. It is not perfect but it helps.
-
In my experience, all vinyl except new has at least SOME crackle. But that could be b/c I don't use a vacuum LP cleaner.
As for the wood glue treatment, I've used it quite a bit, but even it does only a decent (not perfect) job and doesn't remove ALL crackle. And...be very careful using wood glue, as it's very difficult (edit: oops, I mean easy) to leave small traces of the glue on the LP. When that happens, it can be VERY difficult to remove it without damaging the vinyl. Water helps if it's standard wood glue and not waterproof glue. Be sure to apply a decently thick layer of glue, spread it as evenly as possible, let it dry long enough (virtually clear and no yellow areas) but not too long (to the point of getting brittle, could be 10 hours, could be 24 hours). And use tape tabs on both the lead-in groove and the runout groove to facilitate removal of the glue. These tabs can leave their own residue... Oh, and under no circumstances let the glue get on the label!
-
I think some crackle is caused by static discharge in the cold dry winter months. I use a humidifier to keep my listening room between 50 and 60 percent relative humidity throughout the winter months.
-
Unfortunately, I never had very good results with the spin-clean. Not for the lack of trying though. That is why I finally popped for the VPI and have never regretted it. With the right fluids and diligent care of the records after cleaning I have some pretty dead silent discs. I deal with lack of humidity all the time, it's about 14 right now. You can make a record full of static with a machine if you over vacuum it!
Cheers,
Shawn P.
-
I received Edgar Meyer Unfolding last week. I played it three times before cleaning. This LP was open but unplayed, I am convinced. It had about 9 or 10 pretty loud pops or zaps during playing. After cleaning there are 4 very low pops and the others are completely removed.
You, of course, never get this performance with old dirty LPs no matter how much you clean them.
-
I have a cleaning problem that needs suggestions. I have a wax mono recording on glass substrate. Since alcohol dissolves wax, what can I clean it with?
If I asked before, I'm just confused. If I get no responses I will post in the Corner.
-
No idea, Grainger. That sounds like a challenge. Good luck and if you're willing, report back on what you learn.
-
I don't know what would safe but I would think a mild, very dilute soap solution. To the point to its more of a wetting agent then cleaner. I wonder if there is anything like the old Kodak Photo flow...John
-
Good idea John, Photo Flo would probably work well. I have been told this stuff works for https://us.vwr.com/store/catalog/product.jsp?catalog_number=89030-112 expensive as hell though. The Library of Congress uses it on wax cylinders. You would have to own a bunch of wax discs to justify that cost.
Cheers,
Shawn
-
John, I have a bottle of Photo Flow bought about 15 years ago for home-made cleaner. There is almost a full bottle left. It just takes a few drops per gallon.
Shawn, there is one LP, one sided, mono. I thik that you have hit the nail on the head but I'll have to pass on the Library of Congress stuff. I imagine that they have thousands of cylinders.
Thanks guys!
-
Will the VPI machines clean 45's?
thanks.
-
Yeah, but you'll need a special 7" pickup tube. In my experience it doesn't work as well.
-
I just received my VPI 16.5 a few days ago. Wow! I did some before and after tests and it was mind boggling. One of the better vinyl purchases I have made. Sounds like a jet taking off when I fire up the vacuum, but the records do sound pristine once they are cleaned.
The wife went to Goodwill a couple of months ago and they were selling off somebody's record collection. All of the LP's had a personal catalog number and all were void of any scratches. They were selling for $1 each and she bought over 50. Got a fair amount of jazz, Cat Stevens "Tea for the Tillerman," several Elton John's, etc. It is sweet to run into deals like this on occasion.
-
Remember that even new records need to be cleaned. They are full of mold release.
Roger
-
Remember that even new records need to be cleaned. They are full of mold release.
Roger
Go to VinylEngine and do a search on "mold release".
Been some debate about the use of mold release compound in record pressing being pretty much a myth. Folks who claim to be more insider than I state there is no such thing as "mold release compound".
I dunno myself but I do clean even brand spanking new LPs. The only way I know it is clean is if I clean it.
-
I finally got through the 6" stack of new and used vinyl (including the Sergio Mendez album). I had been holding off till my back was better. It took 3 cleaning sessions and I cheated using the cheaper stuff on the oldest, dirtiest albums. It takes 1/3 the time of the AIVS.
-
Go to VinylEngine and do a search on "mold release".
Been some debate about the use of mold release compound in record pressing being pretty much a myth. Folks who claim to be more insider than I state there is no such thing as "mold release compound".
I dunno myself but I do clean even brand spanking new LPs. The only way I know it is clean is if I clean it.
+1 on mold release myth but wet cleaning/vacuuming a new album not only rids noise but makes it sound better. All records sound better cleaned, then put in a fresh sleeve.
Want a < $50 buck vacuum cleaner that works as well as the VPI?
-
For many years I have used a Nagaoka Rolling 152 cleaner.
This does a very good job and is easy to keep clean.
I believe it does get deep into the grooves where other cleaning tools may struggle to do an adequate job.
-
Scrubbing Bubbles here.