Bottlehead Forum
Bottlehead Finished Products => Legacy Products => Bottlehead DAC => Topic started by: Bryce on October 04, 2015, 08:42:12 AM
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I have been using the Bottlehead DAC since release without any difficulty until recently updating my OS to v10.11 by Apple. Previous versions of the OS worked fine with no issues either through iTunes, or Amarra Symphony/sQ+/or Amarra while connected through the USB interface on a Mac Mini. After only changing the OS, I noticed that the DAC gets dropped by the Midi interface (apple audio MIDI setup v3.0.6). At first, I thought that it was software-Amarra; however, if the DAC is plugged in and turned on there is no error or loss. If I turn on iTunes/Amarra/etc. no change until a signal is sent to the DAC. I watched with iTunes after pressing play and the DAC gets dropped intermittently at a frequency of 0.5 sec. Has anyone else upgraded their OS and seen this problem? It appeared to be primarily an OS issue to me; but I had a Schiit Bifrost that I pulled off the shelf to compare. To my surprise, no issue- I heard the music without any issues. I swapped the USB cords- no effect.
1) has anyone else seen this?
2) I would like to get my DAC back online- suggestions?
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The name MacMini has been in use for over 10 years. Could you please provide specific hardware information i.e. late/mid/early year?
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Mac mini Server (Late 2012)
Processor 2.6 GHz Intel Core i7
Memory 16 GB 1600 MHz DDR3
HDD 256 GB SSD x2
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What OS were you running before? Can you roll back?
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OS 10.10 (Yosemite), and 10.9 (Mavericks) worked. Never had any problems with audio quality or interfacing. On the surface, nothing has changed in the MIDI setup. Good question about rolling back-it may not be easy to do now that I've migrated. I'm trying to figure out why it doesn't work in the first place when it did before. The only change is the OS. I've also poised this question to Apple via the beta feedback process- if I ever hear anything back it will be posted here. Any other pointers would be appreciated.
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Rolling back should be pretty easy if you use Time Machine.
This seems different from other Mac issues we have encountered in the past. I'll look into updating Dan's Mini at the office tomorrow.
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I'm wondering if it is new USB power management though the new OS. I may have to find/buy a powered USB hub to see if this makes any difference. It is interesting that one DAC works and the other does not despite both working prior to the OS upgrade. Am I really the only Mac user with this issue? If it works or doesn't work, I'll post the findings here.
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I upgraded a Mac to 10.11 but due to the time commitment of running the upgrade, ran out of time before I was able to see if it killed the DAC.
I may have more information next week. In the meantime, did you try reverting your OS?
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no- not yet because it worked perfectly before the upgrade. Also, I've tried resetting the NVRAM (Intel), and SMC with no change either. I've pulled out a laptop to try this weekend with the old OS, so I have a comparison system without the upgraded OS. It works flawlessly.
Details:
MacBook Pro Mid2010
OS X 10.10.3
8 GB RAM
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I'm wondering if it is new USB power management though the new OS. I may have to find/buy a powered USB hub to see if this makes any difference. It is interesting that one DAC works and the other does not despite both working prior to the OS upgrade. Am I really the only Mac user with this issue? If it works or doesn't work, I'll post the findings here.
You could also try disabling any power management settings that you can find. The DAC only needs to see 5V on the USB to work and draws nearly no current while doing so. Still, you're intuition that some "new" power management may have been added to the OS is good and a great place to look.
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Early 2009 MacMini. BHDAC. OSX 10.11. VLC 2.1.5. Charles Mingus - Better Git It In Your Soul #np
ETA: Amarra 2.4.3 also functioning at all sample rates.
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Interesting, my 2012 mini has an issue with the new OS. If I put a powered USB hub in-between the BHDAC and the 2012 mini, the BHDAC doesn't drop out at all. Take it away and now it does :o. This points to an OS issue with USB power management. Maybe the architecture of the 2009 mini allows for a higher power draw through the USB port. It could be changing the output voltage to lower than 5VDC for a digital signal- possibly small enough to make the BHDAC system unstable. What is the voltage range that the BHDAC can reliably operate within? My guess is that Apple is working towards better power management via the OS overall, so newer machines may likely be effected and old ones will be phased out over time... Likely will be a problem moving forward for all OS(Mac/Win) with evolving systems-right? There is no problem with the BHDAC on my MacBook Pro, Mid 2010 running OS 10.10.3 which is what I was running before the upgrade. I'll upgrade this laptop after making a backup to setup a test system when I have time. I think that I know what the issue is (power management by the OS), but I don't know what the optimal fix will be. I don't like the idea of applying or creating a kludge to fix what should be a simple and efficient system.
FYI-The TOS interface works fine playing directly from the headphone jack out of the 2012 mini- sound is clearly better than passing through the USB hub at 44.1k with iTunes. At higher bitrates, jitter starts in Amarra. :-\ Powercycling for about 10 seconds while keeping the high bitrate fixes the issue without issue. Mediterranean Sundance/Rio Ancho - Al Di Meola, John McLaughlin, Paco de Lucia ; and Cheap Day Return- Jethro Tull sounded fine once the system settled down.
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After updating the laptop to OS 10.11 the DAC works fine with the USB interface on the BHDAC leaving the problem with the mini.
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We are working with updated firmware that should resolve at least some of the issues the couple of users with newer Macs have experienced. We have reflashed one user's DAC but unfortunately we have not heard back from them about whether it resolved their particular issue. We are also trying to get back the new Mac that Josh loaned out so that we have one on hand to do further testing with.
This product was a new gig for everyone involved and we have learned now that it seems to be quite a challenge to keep up with companies like Apple and Lenovo who change hardware and OSs every quarter. I think there might be one or two more users who have had this issue. I would like to reflash some more DACs that have not liked newer Macs, and thus if anyone is experiencing that particular issue please contact us so we can arrange to get your DAC in for a free firmware upgrade.
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I'll be happy to try it and leave feedback here afterwards. Thanks!
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Please add me to the new free FW list.
I have had issues with newer USB3 macs (there is a thread from some months ago) and eventually gave up and hooked up an older USB2 mac to drive the DAC. I did upgrade to El Cap without checking forums for issues (when will I ever learn) and that killed my DAC connection like others have mentioned. I downgraded (painfully) and am back running. But I'd love to be able to get the newer speedy mac in my listening room.
Tony Roide
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We have just received a DAC from someone and will be installing and testing the new firmware. We will have a better handle on this once that is done and will hopefully be ready to share our findings soon. So I will ask that everyone bear with us a little longer while we work this next step.
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We are working with updated firmware that should resolve at least some of the issues the couple of users with newer Macs have experienced. We have reflashed one user's DAC but unfortunately we have not heard back from them about whether it resolved their particular issue. We are also trying to get back the new Mac that Josh loaned out so that we have one on hand to do further testing with.
This product was a new gig for everyone involved and we have learned now that it seems to be quite a challenge to keep up with companies like Apple and Lenovo who change hardware and OSs every quarter. I think there might be one or two more users who have had this issue. I would like to reflash some more DACs that have not liked newer Macs, and thus if anyone is experiencing that particular issue please contact us so we can arrange to get your DAC in for a free firmware upgrade.
Problem i was having related to the dac not recognizing bit rate changes.
The reflash has solved that problem.
Thanks Doc.
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So what is going on with the refresh issue? I own a Bottlehead DAC and it is unusable with El Capitan. Will this refresh be a user doable upgrade or will the unit have to be sent back. Lets get some answers. This a really bad for a otherwise great product.
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What about the solutions already proven in this thread: TOSLINK, using a hub, and rolling back the OS? Have all of these options failed for you Dave?
Furthermore, can you please provide hardware and software specifics?
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The 10.11.1 update supposedly addressed some USB and audio issues. Can anyone confirm/deny?
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I just tried audirvana plus on my macbook pro running 10.11.1 and it disconnects with the BH DAC just as it did with other el cap versions. So definitely not upgrading yet. My other xmos 2 DACs are all fine. Waiting for a DAC FW update before switching my listening room mac to El Cap. Mavericks AND an older usb2 mac seem to work. Newer macs (Haswell or later) don't work at all even with Mavericks.
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Sorry for the update after having the BHDAC reflashed at BH. I've been offline for a while. Overall, the DAC seems to work fine after the reprogramming. The USB interface no longer drops the DAC as soon as a signal is sent without any additional USB hub. It works in Amarra without any glitches switching bitrates too. It looks like the basic problem I was having with the DAC is solved. ;D I'm still curious why it happened in the first place.
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That's great news, Bryce! Does this mean the new firmware is ready for everyone else, or is there still work being done at HQ?
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My mac updates to 10.11 and now the DAC does not work with the MAC.
What do I need to do to get the DAC flashed so it will work with OS X10.11
Debra
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What about the solutions already proven in this thread: TOSLINK, using a hub, and rolling back the OS? Have all of these options failed for you Dave Debra?
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i am going to get a USB hub after clinic today and will try it this evening. I really don't want to roll back the OS. I haven't tried using the optical out either
Debra
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Well, after taking a long time away from the boards I have an update for those mac users out there... ;D
Same mac setup as posted originally, but with the OS v10.13.3 (17D46a) High Sierra BetaOS. It seems to work fine without dropping the DAC in USB, but the best/smoothest setup that works is the S/P Dif interface through a schitt converter (EITR). No problems and I can't honestly tell a difference between interfaces- TOS, USB, or S/P. I think the MIDI interface software by Apple deserves a workover, but I just test and play with this stuff. Whatever power management that Apple OS went through seems to be worked out without doing anything on my part but waiting... Using Amarra Luxe as well.