Bottlehead Forum
Bottlehead Kits => Jaeger Speaker => Topic started by: Doc B. on July 22, 2016, 09:53:30 AM
-
It seems to me like a good time to share some info about a project we have been working on sporadically for the past few months. It started when PB was still working for us more or less full time. He put together a speaker setup based upon some design parameters we agreed upon. The initial requirements were that it be efficient enough to perform extremely well with our more powerful amps and reasonably well with our lower powered amps. It also had to be able to work with a single amp, i.e. it could not be a multi-amp-only design like my reference system.
PB built a roughly 1 cubic foot vented cabinet with two 8" woofers and a fairly inexpensive dome tweeter. The woofers showed a lot of promise, the tweeter not so much. The next iteration replaced the dome tweeter with a horn loaded planar tweeter, and PB and PJ worked out a rough cut crossover for evaluation. At this point the design started to sound like something we could refine into a very listenable setup.
Our new tech Kelvin spent some time getting our clip lead kludged crossover assembled into a more manageable form earlier this week. We've been doing some fairly intensive measurement and testing of different aspects of the design since then, analyzing the advantages and learning to work around the compromises that one finds in every speaker design. PJ, Josh, Kelvin and I were all focused on this project the last couple of days and made a great deal of headway in the process. As it stands now (and subject to change) it looks like we are talking about a tower speaker about 4.5-5 feet tall, about 9" wide and maybe 10-13" deep. There are two woofers that should be able to get down to around 40 Hz when using an amp with a damping factor in the range typical for zero global feedback single ended tube amps. The sensitivity should be in the 93.5-94dB@1W1M range. We've tested this prototype with every amp we make and they all work quite nicely with it. With a Kaiju the speaker ROCKS, loud and clean. I had to run the levels fairly high to listen for any oddball resonances we need to address and at one point I noticed Josh had earplugs in.
The passive crossover will be somewhat complex. This is a necessity to get the speaker to perform at a level similar to my reference system. Currently it features the crossover elements, a zobel for the woofers and a notch filter. We are also looking at ways to improve the HF extension of the horn a bit and to employ some baffle step correction.
Yesterday we nailed down exactly how much padding the very efficient horn tweeter needs to match the woofers. That allowed us to remove an adjustable pad we had in the crossover, and the fixed pad requires us to slightly adjust the crossover component values the keep it at the desired frequency. We will get this reconfigured next week, and then our next step is to move the drivers into the larger cabinet and verify the bass performance of the box and the effect of BSC.
Release date - I don't know, but definitely after we finish the design and not before.
Price - maybe $1500-2K? not sure yet. Depends greatly upon the cabinet design and material and the final crossover configuration and component cost.
To be clear, this design is intended to be a setup for those who want speakers that will be truly optimized to work with our premium amps in a living room sized environment, and who don't mind putting a kit together. It's not intended to be a compact setup, or a nearfield rig, and it's not intended to be a finished product. For those requirements I highly recommend Blumenstein Audio products. Clark has an excellent handle on that aspect.
Unless we come across some heretofore undiscovered, insurmountable obstacle, I will post here when we have any more news about the development of this speaker. Cross your fingers - we've been searching for this grail for 20 years!
-
What a good new! 8)
Well...no fullrange? ;)
-
If it works out it will be a pretty full range speaker, hopefully from around 37Hz to maybe 18kHz, with very smooth response in between and a capability to hit 103dB or so peaks with a Kaiju. If anyone makes a true full range single driver some day - with flat response and that can play at speaker levels rather than headphone levels - I will be interested to hear it.
-
Sounds really exciting! I've been researching some various DIY horn speakers with high efficiency 15" woofers paired with compression drivers. Hope you can upload pics of the test speakers you've built.
-
High(ish) efficiency, designed specifically for Bottlehead amps? Awesome. Although it's a retired BH product, I'm assuming my Paramounts would work great with them too. I don't have the right space for speakers this big at the moment, but I expect to relatively soon. Following with interest.
-
The test speakers are so different than what we are planning for a production cabinet that I don't think it would be prudent to spend too much effort showing them. I will be happy to share images when we get cabinets that are similar to what we hope to sell.
We lucked out and had the parts needed to update the crossover today. That went well and allowed us to try out a Fix for baffle step correction and treble EQ. It definitely did some very positive things for the sound. So we are getting close to being ready to have prototype cabinets made.
-
I am interested, being a purchaser of the Straight 8's back in the day.
I still have them, they make awesome home theater mains...John
-
Thank you for the kind words. I think this speaker would be a marked improvement over the S8. We've learned a bit in the last 16 or 17 years.
-
Very exciting news! ;D
-
Definitely looking forward to learning more about this project.
-
Very cool! Been waiting for this for a while.
I am a very capable wood worker.. and I'm sure others are as well.
Would it be possible to get the "electronic parts" and the cabinet plans so one could make their own cabs?
This would save also on the shipping costs.
Regards
Mike
-
I agree with Mike although I think we are in the minority. I love woodworking and would prefer to buy the plans, crossover, and drivers if that is an option. I'm not saying I wouldn't buy if that is not an option, but it would be my preference.
-
What you guys are describing sounds like some of the projects that Parts Express and Madisound publish. You might want to take a look at their offerings.
My plan at this time is to offer a full kit. That will keep materials, dimensions, and fastening methods consistent. This would assure us that the sound of the speaker is what we intend it to be. That's not meant to denigrate anyone's woodworking skill. It's simply that we are building, testing, adjusting, testing, etc., and will have a large database of what small changes do to the sound. Sometimes the best method in terms of woodworking might not yield the best sound.
This is all assuming we end up with what I consider to be a worthy product. I think we are headed in that direction. We will know a lot more after we get some cabinets in the desired proportions built and tested.
-
I understand your point Doc, and I appreciate the amount of testing and science that goes into all the Bottlehead products. The stock kits sound awesome which is a direct result of that solid research. I'm looking forward to this precisely because you guys are excited about it. Hopefully it will be ready for release soon.
-
Very exciting news!
I am in for a pair! You guys always create great stuff! I have never gotten to hear the straight 8's but I like the wall speakers.
I know this may be a "too early" question but are you thinking the cabinet as a flat pack?
I would prefer non mdf wood too...
I am in the camp of the least woodworking possible by me the better the cabinet will be made:-)
Good luck with the development.
Its going to be pretty cool to have an official bottlehead stereo from the dac through to the speaker!
Taran
-
What I am thinking of at the moment is yes to flat pack, probably no to MDF. It is indeed still early in the game, hence the word experiments in the thread subject header. Part of what we need to consider is what people would be willing to invest. If I thought everyone was independently wealthy we might consider slate.
-
This sounds great to me. The S8 w/ flat-pack cabinets was just right for me and the ideas here sound similar. I still have and listen to the S8's and love them dearly, but would be keen to hear an improvement tailored to my new Kaiju.
I'm in :)
-
Sounds good Doc!
-
Will there be extra binding posts for bi-amplification as an option? Although since this is DIY I am sure this is a pretty straight forward mod.
-
Yes it is being designed with biamping in mind. PJ has been working hard on the passive crossover design and has tentatively determined that we might also be able to offer an active crossover. The speaker should be able to handle a reasonable amount of power, maybe 80 watts or so. I'm envisioning biamped speakers with two Kaijus per channel strapped to mono, 16W per amp. That would get pretty loud, at least 105dB. 80 watts would get you to maybe 112, but not sure about the excursion limitations of the woofers yet.
-
Dan,
When you say "all our amp mmodels", do you also mean some legacy models like Paramour II 45 and S.e.x. 2.0/2.1?
I'm not likely a candidate, but one never knows.
Really enjoying all the new things you guys are coming up with -- continuing the bottlehead tradition and improving with each new generation. Congratulations!
-- Jim
-
Really excited about this project. I was at your listening room and saw the work in progress. I am planning on my next build to be a set of speakers. Really looking forward to how these turn out. Just waiting to give you my money ;)
-
Got some great news today, that a test cabinet has been drawn up. This will be CNC'd from an inexpensive material to verify the basic dimensions and the fastening method that I hope to use.
-
Any updates on this project?
-
Hoping to see the first attempt at CNCing a trial cabinet design soon.
-
Hoping for some updates and images of what's been in the works!
-
Any chance that the speaker kit will be at a stage to have a POC demo during the VALVE meeting on October 15th?
-
We may have one to look at. A test cabinet was made and should be on its way to me in the next week.
-
Test cabinet is together and we are starting to get some measurements. I'll post a pic later today.
-
Exciting stuff!
-
Obviously pics didn't happen yesterday. Hope to get some done today.
-
I'm excited to see what you guys are cooking up.
-
This is what I am picturing, "It's Alive!"
(https://chrisnegron.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/young-frankenstein.jpg)
-
Here is a pic of the proof of concept prototype. This is not the final box. We have not decided on a cabinet material yet. There are many details yet to work out. It's about 4 feet tall, about 9 inches wide and about 15 inches deep. My hope is that it will be something that can ship in a flat pack and be assembled using glue and internal cam locks rather than the external ones you see in the photo. This cabinet glued up nicely and seems nice and rigid, with a few horizontal planar braces stiffening the panels. I will be continuing to get some measurements today. We are using a crossover design that was worked out for a smaller test box and it needs some adjustments for this version.
-
Awesome! I think these would be great in my living room.
A couple of questions:
Will these work okay near a wall, or are they designed to be out in the room?
Also, am I correct in assuming driver protection (grills or the like) will be up to the individual builder?
I hope this project works out as a product, they are looking near perfect for my needs!
-
It's still very early in the design development so I don't have enough info to answer questions about how it's going to work in anyone's room. So far I am getting pretty consistent measurements moving the cabinet around in my listening room. How well that applies to your question I can't say, but it's what I know for now.
Part of the process in this is learning the room issues so we know what in the curves we measure is actual speaker response and what might be some quirk of the room. I hope to know a lot more by the meeting on the 15th.
-
Lookin good! This will go nicely with my new BeePre and Kaiju combo. :D
-
as i sit here listening to my beloved Straight 8s, i think you're going to have
to do a pretty good job to better your previous WORK! :)
-
Well, thank you! So far I can say that the new speaker goes about half an octave deeper, and has better integration of the woofers and tweeter (we have learned a few things in 16 years...), and I suspect when I get two running I will be able to say it images better. I had a nice breakthrough on the tweeter on Friday, coming up with some horn damping changes that really had a positive impact. Then yesterday I removed a borrowed speaker cable I use on the tweeters of my reference setup, and replaced it with some simple cables made of CAT5 cable. Up to that point the bass had seemed a bit light (reminding me of why the borrowed cable was doing tweeter duty). The CAT5 seems to have done a nice job of bringing up the bass into better balance with the midrange. I think we will include enough CAT5 in the kit so that one can make a pair of cables along with wiring the drivers. Was hoping to show it off tomorrow, but it looks like we will be cancelling the meet due to the impending storm. POOP.
-
It's hard to believe that much time has gone by!
Looking forward to seeing (and hearing) what you come up with now.
Future listeners (and builders) can rest assured that what they build
will be with them for many years of wonderful sound :)
-
Looks cool so far. Is there a reason the drivers are mounted so low? I would think bringing the tweeter up to the top would minimize baffle interaction. Have you guys considered getting some outside help or is it just the challenge of doing it yourselves?
-
Not sure why I am being asked to defend the design when no one has heard it, but OK, I'll bite. While I have friends I could call upon - Andrew Jones and Yair Tammam come to mind - I don't feel the need for outside help beyond that which we are getting from the cabinet makers. There are reasons the drivers are mounted where they are. The tweeter needs to be at ear level, not above it. And it also should sit near the woofers to aid imaging. The woofers need to be centered vertically in the box so they have identical size chambers without a lot of complex internal structure. We've done a few speaker designs over the years - some better than others. So this is not our first rodeo.
-
Not sure why I am being asked to defend the design when no one has heard it, but OK, I'll bite. While I have friends I could call upon - Andrew Jones and Yair Tammam come to mind - I don't feel the need for outside help beyond that which we are getting from the cabinet makers. There are reasons the drivers are mounted where they are. The tweeter needs to be at ear level, not above it. And it also should sit near the woofers to aid imaging. The woofers need to be centered vertically in the box so they have identical size chambers without a lot of complex internal structure. We've done a few speaker designs over the years - some better than others. So this is not our first rodeo.
Sorry if I offended, Doc. I was just curious. I hang around a speaker forum and people question ideas constantly over there. FWIW, their scale wasn't obvious. They're apparently larger than they look. I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with.
-
looking forward to these!
Debra
-
Would love to see a pair in your signature color!
-
What a great idea! That I will have to do when they are out
Debra
-
A small update - I have quotes for different materials, save for one that I had requested but was missed. The choices are plain MDF, cherry veneered MDF, Baltic birch and Bamboo ply (similar to Blumestein speakers).
The Plyboo looks very good on paper and of course we know that Clark does great things with it. But in as big a cabinet as we are talking about the cost is "yuge". And my understanding is that sanding before finishing is a long and tedious process. Clark definitely earns his very reasonable prices!
I suspect plain MDF is a deal killer for most folks. A material that is so unfinished seems going in the wrong direction considering that the cabinets assemble in about 15 minutes each. Slapping on some flat black paint is a simple finish, but not really worthy of the sound quality IMO.
That leaves us with Baltic birch and cherry veneer MDF. I don't have the birch quote yet. If it seems reasonable I may have some made up to try out. If it seems beyond the price range I'd like to stay within, I know that the veneered MDF prototype is performing very well and should be easy to finish with something as simple as a light sanding and wiping on a few coats of oil. That should work nicely with the look of the amp bases if finished the same way. And of course one could stain it and do other types of finish as well.
-
MDF vs BB that's a controversial subject.
Seems like BB wins out in most of the literature I have read.
One of the disadvantages of MDF is that the dust from cutting and sanding can be a health hazard
Debra
-
Luckily since the panels will be premade MDF dust is not really an issue for the end user. Any sanding would be done only on the relatively benign cherry veneer before applying a finish.
The main theoretical advantage of birch ply is that it is somewhat more stiff than MDF. Plyboo is even more stiff. But as I say we need to keep the cost in mind. The MDF seems to be working quite well, with the cabinet feeling pretty vibration free thanks to the internal bracing.
-
i was actually thinking more about you guys if you where to do all the cutting.
Debra
-
John Rutter of Harmonic Design Works is facilitating the manufacture of the panels for us. John has been providing wood bases for us for many, many years and I have great faith in his abilities to get the job done right. The cabinet panels are being done at a local (made In America, yay!) cabinet manufacturer John works with who has CNC capabilities. CNC is the most cost effective way to get the repeatable accuracy that we need for cabinets that go together with the cam locking system. The safety regs for woodworking manufacturers are pretty strict these days and they typically have very effective ($$$) dust filtration equipment. JR can probably tell you stories about how much he has had to invest in that stuff.
-
thanks for the info.
I really am looking forward to this
Debra
-
I like the look of cherry and am fine with MDF as long as it's wrapped (or at least externally covered) in a veneer. Either BB or MDF/veneer sound great to me. The idea of the cam-lock assembly appeals greatly.
FWIW, I have my S8's with the flat-pak veneered cabs still going strong. I know they're veneered; can't recall what's underneath. Whatever it was, it's been wonderfully durable and low (really no) maintenance and still looking lovely after all these (like at least 15) years and at least four inter-house and many intra-house moves. The assembly of the flat paks was straightforward and fun; just enough effort to feel like I more or less made them but without the 'teachable moments' of my other speaker cabinet projects.
Really looking forward to these and saving my pennies already.
-
S8 cabs are veneered MDF. They were finished and these will not be, so that's one difference. Another is that I think these drivers sound quite a bit more refined, particularly in terms of imaging, than the S8. The assembly of the cabinet will be similar in terms of effort. The new crossover will be a bit more work to build than the S8 one. Have not figured out how that will be packaged yet. I'm leaning towards an external box, as we plan to offer an active tube crossover in the future to replace it. The wiring of the new speaker will be much less work than the S8. Wiring those 8 woofers was a royal PITA.
-
Hi Doc,
Sounds great to me - I'd gladly trade all that internal speaker wiring, especially with that coated wire, for more external build (the crossover) and some cabinet finishing. An external crossover with the possibility of a future active tube version is also an intriguing and attractive option. A perhaps dumb question - could the crossover (either version) be implemented upstream of the amps to facilitate a bi-amp or multi-amp setup?
-
Yes, that is part of the plan. I will be experimenting with biamping the passive crossover soon. A Kaiju biamping each channel should sound great. Or a couple of Stereomours, Seductors, etc. And of course one could instead connect the passive crossover in a more traditional manner for a single amp and strap a Kaiju or a Seductor too. There will be lots of room for experimentation.
-
Bit by bit - yesterday we verified that the bass ports hit their design frequency of 37Hz nicely. It's not clear in the photos I have shown so far, but each woofer is in its own ported chamber. There is a solid planar brace at the midpoint of the cabinet's height (i.e., right between the woofers) that effectively splits the one cabinet into two bass cabinets.
-
I should have held off on those Great Plains Audio 604's.
Jay
-
I should have held off on those Great Plains Audio 604's.
Jay
I'd love a pair of GPA 604's!
-
A quick update -
We have some quotes from the cabinet manufacturer and we are evaluating what the best price/performance material will be. In the meantime the manufacturer is making up another prototype cabinet for us to check on a few design changes regarding the way the cabinets assemble. Dimensions have not changed from the first prototype. When this second prototype arrives we will be able to evaluate the performance of a stereo pair. They hope to make the parts this week. Fingers crossed...
-
Due to size/weight of the cabinets, shipping outside North America is pretty much precluded. So I was wondering if there any thoughts to offer this as a kit with drivers/crossovers & cabinet plans for those in other parts of the world to DIY their own cabinets?
-
One of the main ideas behind this exercise is to offer a speaker for which the builder does not have to fabricate their own cabinet. The cabinet is a fairly unique design that relies upon CNC machining, so I don't feel that it would translate that well to a DIY cabinet.
The idea of a speaker kit that is just drivers, crossover and a cabinet plan might be something we could consider in the future.
-
Doc,
Do you guys have a high level timeline goal for production readiness of these kits? Just for my own budget planning and Kaiju combo :)
I won't keep you to your timetables just curious.
-
I'm kind of thinking that we will do a pre-order run for 25 pair or something like that. To get there we need to determine the cabinet material, get some production prototypes made, work out the crossover cabinet and get a production prototype, and then write an assembly manual. I will give you a SWAG of around the first of the year, and categorically deny that I ever said it if someone tries to hold me to it.
-
I'm definitely in for a preorder. :)
-
Hey Doc,
Sounds great - I'm very interested and hope to join the pre-order. Did you mean a 'SWAG of around the first of the year' for the pre-order itself or for delivery of the pre-order run?
-
I'd like to say first of the year for the delivery, but I'm too smart for that. By the time we work out the final prototype and all the other stuff - of which there's more than one might think - I suspect the holiday will be upon us. In a fortuitous event some very nice folks stopped by today who do custom shipping boxes and packaging. Making sure the flat pack panels arrive in good shape is another important detail and I have tentatively arranged to have them work up custom made boxes.
-
Thanks, Doc, for the prompt reply. Hope I'm not pestering you too much with questions today.
The boxes are an important detail. I recall the excellent shipping crate in which the S8 flat-pak arrived. It was far too nice to scrap or burn...and, as it happened, a handy size for things more-or-less shotgun-shaped.
Speaking of shipping, any chance of local pick-up for we NW Bottleheads, or will they be drop-shipped from the cabinet shop?
-
Local pickup will be encouraged! Gives us an opportunity to hang with you - and convince you that you need our latest harebrained scheme. We will be getting a run of panels in one shipment and packaging them to ship to our customers from here. I am envisioning the kit fitting into two boxes. One box for the panels, one for the drivers, ports, crossovers bits, wire, binding posts, etc., etc.
-
I guess it's time for an update -
We have had a pair of the speakers running since the last DIY tube meet. Lots of "I will order when they are ready to sell" comments were heard.
The next step has begun. I have asked JR to make a pair of cabinets in Baltic birch plywood with maple veneer. I'm hoping that birch ply will be the actual production material. We are also working out a 6" high base that the speaker will sit on, that will house the passive crossover/compensation networks.
PJ has begun planning out an active crossover as well. It will replace the passive crossover parts in the base. The compensation networks will be retained.
Price is still up in the air, but will probably be in the $2K or a bit more per pair range.
-
PB & Doc; Have you been listening to the new speaks yet? Any word on when we can expect them?
Cheers from Eugene, Hank
-
You can see my comments on performance in the notes from Saturday's meeting. They sound very good, good enough that I find myself going up to listen whenever I could catch a break today. I am hoping to see the birch ply cabinets soon. We still have some other details to work out before we are ready to take orders.
-
Sounds really, really interesting. If I have a vote, baltic birch (veneered or not, external crossover and what seems to me to be an interesting and attractive form figure. If I were to get one, it would take a lot of time to save enough pennies, depending on what else I can sell and at what price (and maybe a borrowing from my allowance fund :-).
37 hz -- very nice number that will go very well in my room. Now I'm most interested in how close to the front wall these can go (ports)?
Keep the updates coming.
-- Jim
-
Big breakthroughs the past couple of weeks. PJ was over a while back and we experimented to great effect with a little stuffing in the ends of the chambers to reduce a box resonance in the 250Hz range. Yesterday I remounted the woofers with some rubber o-rings, which had a dramatic effect on a little bit of upper midrange shout that I was trying to eliminate.
These speakers are now where I was hoping to get them. Yesterday I ended up listening for several hours, doing that listening to stuff you are familiar with thing, to see what new information the speakers were capable of revealing. A lot! Vocals are now very natural and it's quite easy to pick out how things were mic'd and mixed. I was able to complete a mix I had been working on for a while, that I was struggling a bit with for lack of a good enough point of reference for my changes. With the midrange issues tamed the job became a whole lot easier.
To top off the great week, the next set of prototype cabinets showed up today. Below are pics of one cabinet dry fitted together. The first cabs are made of veneered MDF, these are made of Baltic birch. It will be interesting to see what effect the new material has on the sound. As you can see the new cabs also have a cubbyhole in the bottom for the passive crossover components and a base for stability.
-
Looking good!
-
Looking good!
Agreed! They turned out nice!
-
I like the bit for the crossover. Earlier you had said you were working on a 6" base that the speaker would sit on. I think it looks much nicer with it concealed like that.
Can't wait! Did well on my taxes this year, so I've got some cash burning a hole in my pocket. :)
-
Look great Doc! Sounds like a lot of progress is being made!
-
Doc, they look terrific. Hoping you can figure out how to package them so us non Seattle area folks get get them as well.
Alan
-
I definitely plan to package them for shipment. In a lucky stroke some packaging experts came by a few months ago. They were visiting a customer in our business park, and one of them knew about us and was excited to come by to see the gear. Turned out they specialize in packaging stuff like flat pack furniture. I will be talking to them soon.
-
I know you guys are covered up with orders from the recent Crack amp sale. But it's been a month since the last update. Any news on the speaker front?
Thanks.
-
From the facebook page:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10209689504728156&set=a.10207494820222415.1073741828.1046019712&type=3&theater
-
Thanks Paul. I didn't even consider looking at Facebook.
-
We had a great meeting on Saturday, during which all listening was done on the latest iteration of the kit speakers, with the new birch ply cabinets and some adjustments to the crossover to bring the component values a little closer to the design values. We listened with three different amps, three different sources and a pretty broad range of music to try to identify what things we were hearing that were consistent in the character of the speakers with any source or amp.
All in all it was a great session and a really great group of listeners. The birch ply makes for a much more dynamic presentation. My takeaway was that the new crossover components may have filled in a slight depression in the upper end of the woofer's response. With that filled in we now have some leeway to try shading the woofer array which is, essentially, cutting off the upper response of the lower woofer starting at a bit lower point than the upper driver. The theory is that we should get even better imaging (it's already very good) with only one woofer playing the upper mid and lower treble frequencies, along with less of the effects of comb filtering between the two woofers. This would be done without sacrificing any bass. I'll be ordering parts for the shaded crossover this week.
The other cool news is that the CFO gave me permission to order our new 40W laser cutter today. My hope is to cut 1/8" plywood panels for mounting the crossover components, and to cut and engrave wool felt surrounds for the tweeters.
-
Thanks for the update Dan. Like everything you guys do I know they won't be released until they perform up to your high standards. So I won't ask when they will be ready for purchase. I really don't need a new pair of speakers, but dang you are making me want to place the order!
-
Can't wait to hear it!
-
Kelvin built the shaded crossover yesterday and I gave it the first listen at the end of the day. Does some nice things. I'll offer more info after we do some measurements. The other news is that the laser cutter arrived yesterday. I will be setting this up in the shop at home due to its size and venting requirements. Hope to be able to run some trial cuts by next week.
-
I assume there will be no way to get this in europe?
-
We would certainly offer the kit for shipment to Europe. I don't know yet what it would cost.
The shaded crossover has worked out exceptionally well, and I think we are close to locking the design. I am working on the layout of the felt diffraction panels for laser cutting today.
-
Pardon my ignorance. I know very little of speaker design. What is a "shaded crossover?"
-
Doc talks about it in his post on April 3
-
Ah, nice. I missed that part. Thanks!
-
Went a little off the deep end the past couple of days playing with a potentially silly idea for the diffraction felt we will put on either side of the kit speaker tweeters. Have no clue if it will work better, worse, or just the same as a strip of felt or shark's teeth shapes like most everyone else tries. Anyway, I like the look. After 9 hours working out a quadratic residue diffusor cell layout that would fit and function at the frequencies of interest and getting the shapes into the CAD software yesterday, the actual cutting of the pieces took just a few minutes. After a few hours of swearing at the laser cutter software today, that is. At least with my past CNC experience I knew that was coming. Will be comparing these against straight strips of similar felt tomorrow.
(https://scontent.fsnc1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18057639_10210107926388436_8674783926921917921_n.jpg?oh=5c1c38e71b5401e517a5537e30ab54b8&oe=5982E913)
-
looks cool!
Interested In hearing how it sounds
Debra
-
Wow, this setup really works! A distinct improvement in image stability over straight strips of the same thickness and type of felt. Sometimes you have to go with your instinct.
(https://scontent.fsnc1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18198535_10210113588809993_6605375143002291526_n.jpg?oh=afa238a1cea92fba7eabb90039ac142b&oe=598465E8)
-
Very cool and much better looking!
-
Here's the more or less final version of the speaker kit impedance compensation network. Wood board with pressed in solder eyelets is laser cut in house. No solder traces to mess with the sound.
(https://scontent.fsnc1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18765654_10210364114992991_5360152913320854501_n.jpg?oh=73a4e75580c40dc53de7efeac44612d5&oe=59B06662)
-
Nice work!
-
Nice and neat. Lookin' good!
-
Dear Paul Joppa;
Could you explain what your "bridged T" network does for the new speaker?
I am sure there are many on our Forum who would be interested in how you developed it. PB says it works a treat!
I hope to hear it myself in late June.
Cheers, Hank in Eugene
-
Dear Paul Joppa;
Could you explain what your "bridged T" network does for the new speaker?
I am sure there are many on our Forum who would be interested in how you developed it. PB says it works a treat!
I hope to hear it myself in late June.
Cheers, Hank in Eugene
Sure. It's a long-ish story though ...
First, the woofers are Zobeled to give them a constant impedance with frequency. (That's a simplification; the lower woofer is cut out so only the upper one is active in the crossover region - but the end result is close to 8 ohms in the audio band.)
The woofer itself has a resonance at a bit over 5kHz, with about a 4dB peak. Above the resonance it falls at 12dB per octave. By using a suitable notch filter, that is made to be a 6dB/octave roll off from 2800Hz to around 10kHz. The bridged-T is a form of notch filter that maintains constant input impedance at all frequencies, which is needed for the crossover itself to work into. It has 4 resistors, 2 caps, and 2 inductors - more complicated than the usual RLC notch.
The woofer crossover combines with the 6dB/octave to give something very close to a 4th order Linkwitz-Riley function at the 2800Hz crossover.
-
Kelvin got the production impedance compensation networks installed in the cabinets Wednesday. The improvement was one of those "whoa, didn't expect that!" kind of things. Yesterday I got the external passive crossover boards laser cut, and today I built them out and installed them. I cannot explain why since the part values are pretty much the same as the crossover and network prototypes, but the speakers have taken a very big jump forward with these production prototypes. It's getting pretty wonderful. If you think you have heard them at their best, you haven't yet. I suggest you come by tomorrow and listen 12-3.
-
It has 4 resistors, 2 caps, and 2 inductors - more complicated than the usual RLC notch.
I've studied lots of speaker designs, and I've never seen a speaker level bridged T filter used before. (This is where PJ steps in and provides a link to an obscure JBL design that used one!)
-
I've studied lots of speaker designs, and I've never seen a speaker level bridged T filter used before. (This is where PJ steps in and provides a link to an obscure JBL design that used one!)
The bridged-T is (was) commonly used in line-level studio gear before WWII, which used matched impedance connections. That came about from telephone technology, probably because phone lines were used to connect the studio and/or concert hall to a radio transmitter. Once gain became cheap and negative feedback became common, studios transitioned to low source impedance/high input impedance. I've never seen it in a speaker crossover either. I suppose the cost of twice as many components was off-putting. Today, commercial designers are more likely to us computer optimizations to achieve a good approximation to the desired target function, using as few component$ as possible.
For this design, I wanted to separate the eq from the crossover, and give the eq a constant input resistance to make it more flexible with different amps - looking ahead to the possible use of active crossovers. (I did a similar thing with the tweeter eq, but it's simpler.) This also makes the crossover design straight out of the book, so it's easier to understand, and also regular commercial active crossovers could be used. (We'll have one ourselves of course, but our customers are often independent minded and/or experimental.)
-
Dear Paul Joppa;
I am heartened by your decision to separate impedance matching circuits from the Xover circuit. This means I might be able at some point to make use of my XM-9 Marchand fourth order three-way Xover somehow. Previously, i used it to cross between a Linaeum tweeter, a 5 inch Vifa T-line, and a Focal 10" Kevlar T-line. wonderful speaks, but not sensitive enough for my Custom BH 2A3 amp. My electric piano in front.
Cheers, Hank in Eugene
-
I have just sent in the order for the production prototype cabinets that we will use to shoot the assembly manual for this kit. Getting closer and closer.
-
When do you expect to release the kit?
Cheers, Hank in Eugene
-
Once we have the assembly manual shot we will start taking pre orders. The new cabinets should be here pretty soon.
-
I had the good fortune to spend a few hours with Doc at Bottleheadquarters a couple of months ago, just after he installed the impedance compensation networks. We listened to a wide range of music, from just about every source known to Man. We tried good recordings (the Tape Project! OMG!), crappy digital recordings, and everything in between. His new speakers are fantastic.
By that, I don't mean that they made crappy recordings sound good. They are too revealing for that. What they did do, however, was let the music shine through without emphasizing or masking anything. Poor recordings were revealed for what they were, but they were still enjoyable. Good recordings, on the other hand, were unlike anything I've yet heard. One of my favorites is "Saxophone Colossus" from Sonny Rollins. It is one of my reference albums, I know every note and brush stroke, and I listen to it on every system I can. I've never heard it sound this good. The same can be said for every album we tried. Driven by the Stereomour II in Doc's listening room, these speakers kick ass.
For contrast, my personal speakers are my own design/fabrication and are something of a homage to the Omega outlaws. They consist of a Fostex 120a in a sealed volume, rolled off with a single capacitor at around 300hz, driven by my Stereomour. In a separate sealed volume I've got a Dayton sub driven by a Crown XLS1500, digitally crossed over to integrate with the Fostex. At low to medium volumes they sound pretty damned good. Incredibly fast and detailed in the mids, as full range drivers so often are, with gobs of very punchy bass. I've blown the minds of many a visitor with these speakers, and it pains me more than a little to admit that the new Bottleheads are significantly better in every way. All of the detail and articulation, with none of the shout or high-volume breakup I get with mine. The bass is all there and perfectly integrated. Rich and full with no boom.
Am I gushing? Perhaps, but not because I have anything to gain. On the contrary, this is my attempt to give back a bit.
I've learned a tremendous amount from this forum and rarely have much to share that any one of you don't already know. In this particular case I'm one of only a few civilians to get my ears on these things so figured I'd give my best attempt at a useful review. If you are in the market for new speakers, I highly recommend giving these a shot.
-
Wow, thank you so much, Mike! We're hoping to see the final prototype cabinet panels this week and get started on the assembly manual. As usual the process is going slower than I had planned. But one way or another we will have things far enough along to take pre-orders this month.
For anyone who wants to hear the speakers, we have them set up in our listening room. A great day to hear them will be this Saturday from 12-3. We will be having our monthly meetup, spinning vinyl with an experimental all tube moving coil cartridge step up preamp. Or give us a call and we will be happy to arrange a time for you to hear them during the week.
-
I'm thinking I have not shown the back of the cabinet yet. This is a pic of the prototype built just prior to the production one we will be building for the assembly manual. It is 98% the same, the 2% difference being that the binding posts will sit a little higher on the back panel to simplify the internal wiring. You can see the cubby hole in the bottom for the passive crossover. That will allow easy removal of the crossover when we come out with an active tube crossover for biamping, some time in the future. We're working out packaging right now and then we will be moving on to shooting the manual.
(https://bottlehead.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/20170815_1430132-e1502840962859.jpg)
-
Why do the binding posts have to be up that high? There is plenty of room between the port and the cubby hole. Would also make things tidier behind the speaker when set up. Dare I say that there are many choices of speaker post inserts which would neaten things up too.
-
The binding posts will sit a little higher on the back panel to simplify the internal wiring. There is an impedance network board for the woofers and the tweeter, that is mounted on a solid center divider between the two woofers. The binding posts are high enough to make a short connection to that board. This way there is only one easy to seal hole through the center divider for running the wiring to the lower woofer, rather than four or five holes back and forth from posts to board or board to upper woofer and tweeter.
-
If you have a little age on you and are arthritic the higher positioned binding posts will be a plus!
-
Well after Paul Birkeland(with his wife and new baby boy) visited our home in Eugene last week giving a very positive account of the new speakers, I am curious once again about the possible delivery date. Paul said that the high sensitivity of these speakers will allow the Custom Bottlehead/JJ 2A3-40 equipped stereo amp that Paul built for me to really sing freely, as compared with the Orca/Buf Subs currently in use, which bottom out when stressed with big symphonic music, Like Mahler, etc.
So, I am eager to hear how the final design is going together, and when it may be available to those that live south of the border in Oregon. I would welcome a trip north to hear them and pack a pair home, as I have deferred an art/business trip to Seattle, hoping soon to bring back a pair to build. Any new word on a delivery timeline Doc?
Cheers, Hank in Eugene
PS: Meanwhile, here is the setup waiting for them(do they have a name?).
-
I'm hoping to be ready to take orders in September. We're getting down to the last few details.
-
.... We're getting down to the last few details.
Such as a name! I've been calling them the "Nameless Speaker" for a while now... :^)
-
You are assuming I don't have a name that I'm keeping to myself ;). Josh and I are leaning towards Jaeger, as in,
If you have a Kaiju, you need a Jaeger.
We got some good news today about pricing and packaging, so we have moved another small step forward.
-
"If you have a Kaiju, you need a Jaeger."
I had to Google that phrase and all then became clear although all of that was completely new to me. Nice connection. At least I now have a possible answer to the question I asked a few weeks ago.
-
So Doc, with all the effort that went into these does that make you guys the Jaeger masters?
-
"Jaeger" is a really cool name keeping with the Pacific Rim theme.
A pair will allow you to become one with your music in "The Drift" :D
-
Spelling correction, it's Jäger. Umlauts are very important with camlock construction.
-
I'm not a linguist, but typically umlauts are consistent with Germanic languages ::)
Dave
-
You mean, like German…?
The language that the word "jäger" comes from?
That kind of Germanic?
-
Or Swedish as in IKEA the masters of camlocks?
-
(https://tedconfblog.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/ikea-instructions.jpg)
-
Lol. Just in case you were wondering which end was up :o
Dave
-
Jägermeister is 70% proof. I'm sure the speaker will be closer to 100%. 8)
-
Quick update - we are making good progress with the manual photo shoot. I want to mention that this is the easy step. Josh still has the big job of the accompanying written instructions, and that will take some time. While he is doing that, I will be getting some final measurements and taking product shots. We are also exploring custom packaging for shipping the cabinet panels. We hope to be ready to begin taking orders very soon.
The first few cabinets I assembled were hurriedly finished with Tru-Oil, as I was mostly concerned with getting them running. This latest Baltic Birch ply cabinet for the manual build received a sanding with 220 grit paper, two coats of Seafin Teak Oil and a finish sanding with 400 grit and a buffing with a cloth this morning. It took about 20 minutes and the surface feels very smooth, with a nice satin finish.
-
OK, here's pretty much what the production Jäger speaker will look like. Slightly different felt colors than the previous iteration, and you can see how the passive crossover installs and connects on the back side. The passive crossover down in the rear cubby can be run with a single amp, or with two amps for biamping by removing a jumper. Down the road there will be an active tube crossover kit that will allow biamping without the passive crossover. In that case the passive can be pulled out and tweeter and woofer speaker cables will connect directly to the upper binding posts.
(https://bottlehead.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/productionjagerfront-e1504308245319.jpg)(https://bottlehead.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/productionjagerback-e1504308278106.jpg)
Apologies for the soft images. It would seem the Wordpress photo editing tool is from 1996. Next time I will size them in Pshop. Also a reminder that a pair of these will be running with Kaiju monoblocks at Bottleheadquarters tomorrow from 12-3.
-
Nice and tidy!
-
They look great! Nice work!
-
Looks great! Did I miss the dimensions? I'm curious how tall these are.
-
52"
-
Down the road there will be an active tube crossover kit that will allow biamping without the passive crossover.
Hi - What's the crossover frequency? Thanks!
Gerry
-
If the tweeter efficiency is higher than the woofers' you could add independent binding posts for each woofer so that when the active crossover is used an amp powers each driver. Just sayin'
-
Crossover is around 3200Hz, IIRC. All the specs will be up on the website in a few days. You cannot use separate binding posts for each woofer without changing internal wiring. The woofers are in a series wired shaded array configuration and getting it all into balance with different wiring and amps could be rather challenging. This is intended to be a pretty fully evolved design that includes very specific components to achieve its performance rather than the typical drivers, capacitors and binding posts speaker "kits" that so many companies sell. The many months it has taken to get the design to this point have been spent trying a lot of different circuits, materials, etc. I know it's fun to embellish this kind of thing with our own musings, but I would hope that builders will give the design a chance as delivered before personalizing it. That way one will have a baseline from which to determine whether any mods are a step forward or not.
With regards to using lots of amps, some may recall that a main point of this exercise was that the guys wanted me to put a speaker in our studio that would work with a single amp of modest power. I will be doing a little demo of the capabilities today, as we run the 94dB speakers with 16 watts per channel. That's 106dB peaks.
-
Wish I were in the area! It would be great to hear these.
-
If the tweeter efficiency is higher than the woofers' you could add independent binding posts for each woofer so that when the active crossover is used an amp powers each driver. Just sayin'
While the tweeter is a bit more sensitive than the woofers, we took that as an opportunity to flatten out the tweeter response a bit.
-
The acoustical crossover is at 2800Hz.
-
Is there any information as to what drivers are used in these?
-
Two 8" paper/fiber woofers and a horn loaded planar tweeter of approximately 6".
-
I read that part, but was more interested in the manufacturer and model. The tweeter appears to be the Dayton Audio PHT1, but I was unable to identify the woofer.
Thanks!
-
In the interest of protecting our intellectual property we are somewhat disinclined to share anything more than general information on the components used. The tweeter is a lightly modified Dayton, the woofers are Silver Flute. However there is much more to the design that influences the final sound besides driver choice - cabinet design and materials, damping, isolation, impedance compensation, crossover design, construction method, etc. One could buy the same drivers and make a really bad sounding speaker just as easily as (or more easily than) a really good sounding one.
-
Just ordered my set. Can't wait! Already trying to decide what album to play first.
-
Thanks, Nick, and everyone else who has ordered! Just a reminder that we will take pre-orders through Sunday the 17th for this first production run.