Bottlehead Forum
Other Gear => Speakers => Topic started by: Dr. Toobz on October 24, 2009, 03:30:19 PM
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I kind of dig the retro look of Klipsch Heritage-line speakers, but don't have the room (or money) for anything big. So far, I've not been impressed with my $600/pair Icon W14 bookshelves, which are very thin in the mids, being 2-ways. I've heard that exponential horns handling the mids, when combined with a tube amp, is awesome for jazz and rock. Does anybody have experience with the Heresys? The new III's are 99dB sensitive at 8 ohms (or so Klipsch claims) and seem like they would be an easy load for the S.E.X. Unfortunately, I have no way of auditioning them, as my adopted new hometown of Iowa City doesn't have any Heritage retailers (actually, there are no retailers within the entire state of Iowa, per Klipsch's website). I could always wait until I go home to the Chicago area and stop at a store out there, but I'm not going to go out of my way to make an extra trip if these things sound like glorified PA horns. I always see sets of new III's for $999 on eBay and Amazon marketplace (probably due to mismatched veneer, but so what) which is lot less than the $1500/pair Klispch wants. Plus, the sales tax at home in Cook County, IL is over 10%!
Opinions would be appreciated! And no, I'm not a Klipsch fanboy - if anything, I've been less-than-impressed with their stuff (though I did kind-of like my RF-5's, which I had to sell due to looking weird in my living room and being too damn big).
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Klipsch seems to have a reputation in some circles as being bright, shrill and even causing ears to bleed! Oh my! My take; upgrade your electronics and give them another listen. Agreed some Klipsch can sound bright with poorly designed or cheap amplification. That was some of my experience before I took the next step into the higher end of audio. When I first connected the Paramours to the Heresy I pair and hit the Play button, I was transformed into another realm of listening pleasure; somewhere I had never been with any equipment I had owned.
I also enjoy the Heresys with the S.E.X. amp. For most listening, in my 10' x 12' listening room, they are fine. If you want to crank it, or with certain types of music, they will run out of gas. The Heresy I is 95-96 dB efficient, significantly less than the Heresy III at 99 dB. Your room conditions and listening preferences will certainly play a major role in your decision. Also it is no secret the Heresys are bass shy, but a modest sub or a pair from Parts Express will take care of that.
I hang out on the Klipsch forum quite a bit and from what i gather there, all Heritage speakers work well with tubes. In my own experience I have found that the Heresy works well with any 'quality' amplification. I now have a mix of amplifiers from flea-powered SET to a PP EL84 to a SS Mac MC250 to a 10 watt chip amp. They all perform beautifully with the Heresys, as well as my other speakers; Bottlehead Straight 8s and my newly acquired Klipsch RF-7s.
I have come to love the horn sound. To me, the Heresy, with its horn-loaded mids and highs, sounds like a baby Klipschorn. Not near the impact, of course, nor anything close to the bass, but the sonic signature is there in spades. I am breaking in the RF-7s (which are a 2-way with one horn handling the mids and highs) and, although the RF-7 has a MUCH larger total impact, so far I am still preferring the Heresy sonically.
One option you have is to look for a pair of used Heritage speakers. With the economy, now is the time to buy used. You may be able to snag a pair of Heresy I or II for less than three hundred in very good shape. There are a few other classic speakers with a similar footprint that have a very good reputation and following, such as the Forte or Chorus models. And if you have the room, step up to the Cornwalls or La Scalas. All can be had for less than a grand right now. Hang out on the Klipsch forum and ask some questions. Check out Craigslist.
Rick
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If you changed the SEX amp tubes to 6EM7's, you would likely be just fine in the power department (you change one cap and one resistor per channel). The C4S boards are a must if you use the 6EM7 (set R1 to 1k), as the high gain triode seems to sound much better with the high impedance load.
I used Klipsch speakers for quite some time (CF-4), and while I was really happy that I could drive them to earth shattering levels with 2 watts, there were some faults that were tough to ignore for me. For a small room and sub $1000 speaker budget, I think they are a good choice.
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Thanks for the advice! A few thoughts:
a) I don't think anything in my equipment chain should be problematic with horns, though my living room is another story entirely. For playback, I have a classic Marantz CD-67SE, which is a very warm-sounding CD player. I also have a Cambridge Audio DAC that I run an Airport Express through, using Apple Lossless files. On the analog end, I have a Denon DM-500M turntable (a 2007 model w/ huge cherrywood plinth), AT 120E cart with microline stylus (the one for the other AT cart that escapes me at the moment). I have my Seduction using 6922 tubes and C4S loads on them, going through 1M of interconnects to my SEX amp, which are also C4S'ed. I'm using 6DN7 tubes with stock coupling and interstage caps and Specos wired on a DPDT switch for 4 and 8 ohms for my OTPS. The MQ upgrade seems enticing, but expensive. I'd rather drop the $400 or so I'd spend on new iron and caps for speakers!
b) I think I know my problem with my current Klipsches (and the RF-5s of yore): Klipsch speakers, at least ones that use bass-reflex loading, seem to have huge impedance dips and nasty phase angles in the midbass region, between 85Hz and 250Hz or so. The RF-5's in fact dropped down to something like 2.5ohms, which is lower than the reflected impedance of the 6DN7 tubes, even with the 4-ohm taps. As a result, there was too much interaction with high-impedance of the S.E.X., leading to strident-sounding highs and mids at 8ohms, and very feeble bass at 4ohms (bass at 8 ohms was louder, but very flabby due to the damping factor being so low). Note, I got rid of the RF-5's before I put the current sources on the plates of the smaller triodes. My current Klispch Icon W14's are merely OK sounding, but seem to be too prominent in the mids and highs, and bass isn't great considering the smallish 4.5" midwoofers. The F0 is probably something like 85Hz!
I have been planning to put in the 6EM7's (since I have indeed gone away from using a resistor as my plate loads) and change R1 to 1000ohms. I currently have tons of power using the 6DN7's - that aside, is it reasonable to assume that the impedance issue might be less significant with the 6EM7's? Also, the living room the speakers are in is less-than ideal: 10-foot cielings and wood floors. The bookshelf speakers are on the fireplace mantle, which corner loads them and gives a bit better bass, but they are too high and have no seperation or image. That's why I've been considering the Heresy III.
In all, can I assume that the Heresy III will sound better than my Icons and perhaps even better than the current-hungry RF-5s? I want a classic sound with a ton of presence, especially since I mostly listen to acoustic jazz. Would the Heresys be nicer to my amp in terms of impedance dips (they are sealed and the woofers probably don't have a huge excursion)?
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Hmm, it sounds like the EM7 isn't the answer. I would either:
1. Have Mikey custom wind you some output iron with a 3 ohm tap to hand the impedance dip...
or...
2. Play around with some global negative feedback to bump the damping factor up a bit and lower the output impedance. Note: you will want the extra gain of the 6EM7 for this!
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Isn't the output impedance of the "usual" MQ upgrade about 3 ohms to begin with? Or at least that's what I read in the past...
Also, doesn't the 6EM7's bigger triode like to see a lower impedance load than the 6DN7? I thought that the typical plate impedance on the latter was something like 8k, whereas the 6EM7 was 5k. If that's the case, I'd assume that you could lower the load impedance by the same amount, i.e. 5000/8000 = 62.5% of the 6DN7's impedance to get the same "reflected" value at the tube. Assuming an 8000/8ohm stepdown like the Specos, wouldn't that end up being 5ohms on the 8ohm tap or 2.5 on the 4? Or am I over simplifying this?
Maybe somebody with the H3's and a S.E.X. amp can chime in - perhaps the problems with impedance aren't as dire with that particular speaker. They were designed in the days of tubes (1957), though admittedly, the 1950's favored push-pull amps with good damping factors as opposed to our no-NFB SET designs. In any case, I can't see them being TOO current hungry. Klipsch doesn't publish such information, unfortunately....
Any other owners care to chime in?
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Also, doesn't the 6EM7's bigger triode like to see a lower impedance load than the 6DN7? I thought that the typical plate impedance on the latter was something like 8k, whereas the 6EM7 was 5k....
The 6DN7 plate impedance is about 2300 ohms at the normal operating point, so on the 8 ohm output tap it will contribute 2.3 ohms. The transformer will add something like 0.5 ohms fro a total 2.8 ohms.
The 6EM7 plate resistance at the SEX operating point will be about 850 ohms, reflecting 0.85 ohms. With the transformer, maybe 1.35 ohms. So it does have better damping.
What the tube "likes to see" depends on the operating voltage and current. In both cases, the operating point has been chosen to make the 8K load impedance very close to the optimum.
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My experiences are pretty much opposite of Rick's. I enjoy my RF-7's more than I did the Heresy II's. The Heresy is a great speaker, but the coloration was a bit to much for my taste. At low volume the tonal balance was nice. But turn it up and the mid horn really stuck out. I found them a bit honky and distant(hollow) sounding. It sounded like they were in the other room or placed behind a wall. Even with a sub the bass just didn't show up. This was with a standard FPIII and paramount 300b's.
The reference series speakers sound much flatter and more natural (to me). Maybe not as musical as the Heresy's. The RF-7's did take some getting used to. At first they seemed so forward and analytical, and yes a little harsh up top. Swapping out the stock caps and tweaking the resistor values tamed the shrillness and sweetened them up. They could probably use some more power, but using the 4 ohm tap really helped the bass fill out. They're keepers for now, but I'm still looking for something better. They sound great with the S.E.X, and I haven't yet wired that for 4 ohms.
I just found a very cool pair of Altec Model 14's and they are showing promise.
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I would be listening to these at pretty low levels - probably never more than 1W, since the H3's are 99dB/1W/m. My current speakers are only 92dB and I rarely turn the knob past 10 o'clock - the wood floors seem to boost the in-room sensitivity quite a bit, and being in a condo, the last thing I want to do is have my neighbors come after me for blasting "A Love Supreme" or "Sunday at the Village Vanguard." Not that jazz tends to annoy neighbors much anyway - at least it's not rap or something noisy. My alto sax might be another story entirely, though I smother the hell out of it so hardly any sound comes out.
If the Heresys are well behaved and tonally pleasing at low levels, they might be just what I need for the S.E.X. amp....
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I'm curious, do you listen to a lot of alto sax since you play it?
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Dr. Toobz,
I think the Heresy will be a well-behaved load for your S.E.X. amp. Much more behaved than your RF-5s for sure. The RF-7s also present the tougher load with the impedance dips; thus they do not work as well with my SET amps as they do with the Mac MC250 SS or the Stromberg-Carlson EL84 PP.
Again, since you don
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My experiences are pretty much opposite of Rick's. I enjoy my RF-7's more than I did the Heresy II's. The Heresy is a great speaker, but the coloration was a bit to much for my taste. At low volume the tonal balance was nice. But turn it up and the mid horn really stuck out. I found them a bit honky and distant(hollow) sounding. It sounded like they were in the other room or placed behind a wall. Even with a sub the bass just didn't show up. This was with a standard FPIII and paramount 300b's.
The reference series speakers sound much flatter and more natural (to me). Maybe not as musical as the Heresy's. The RF-7's did take some getting used to. At first they seemed so forward and analytical, and yes a little harsh up top. Swapping out the stock caps and tweaking the resistor values tamed the shrillness and sweetened them up. They could probably use some more power, but using the 4 ohm tap really helped the bass fill out. They're keepers for now, but I'm still looking for something better. They sound great with the S.E.X, and I haven't yet wired that for 4 ohms.
I just found a very cool pair of Altec Model 14's and they are showing promise.
dmannnnn,
Yeah, I am also still warming up to the RF-7s. I am liking them more and more as I listen. I know my small listening room is hindering the performance some. The small room is probably one reason I am so passionate about the Heresys. They really do sound wonderful with a small sub. And musical, as you said.
Rick
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I'm curious, do you listen to a lot of alto sax since you play it?
Not more than any other jazz listener, actually - I haven't been playing it very long (upright bass is the main instrument that I've played since I was a child). Much of the jazz literature seems to feature tenors, though the sound of an alto in its lower and middle ranges has an intriguing smoothness and clarity that I like much better than the tenor in the same range. I also have found alto a lot easier to play, since I'm a rather small guy (5'8" and 130lbs) and have the air capacity of a small ziploc bag. I could only imagine trying to get that big reed going on a bari....
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Dr. Toobz,
I think the Heresy will be a well-behaved load for your S.E.X. amp. Much more behaved than your RF-5s for sure. The RF-7s also present the tougher load with the impedance dips; thus they do not work as well with my SET amps as they do with the Mac MC250 SS or the Stromberg-Carlson EL84 PP.
Again, since you don
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I bought my HII's from one of those IsoldIt places on ebay for $450. They were absolutely mint. Perfect. They even smelled like brand new. Walnut with just a very thin lacquer finish. They really are beautifully made speakers. The bookmatched veneers look awesome. I put them up on ebay and they sold for $725 W/shipping. I couldn't believe it. There are definitely good deals to be had on ebay. You just need to buy from the right seller. Sellers who give detailed descriptions, post large detailed pictures, and have a good return policy and feedback are the only ones I will bid on.
Klipsch actually has a store on ebay. Seller KlispschStore. Last year they were selling refurb Heresy III's and RF-7's at a good discount. All they have now are some Jamo speakers, but it might be something to keep an eye on.
Before I sound like an ebay commercial let me say that they are greedy fee mongers.
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Earlier this year I traded in a pair of Heresy IIs for a pair of Klipsch KG4.2 towers and haven't regretted it. There were a lot of things I liked about the HIIs but ultimately they lacked any bass below 50 Hz and image height was about 3'. Also they needed to be on the floor. I tried raising them up on stands and lost a lot of bass. I've heard they need a big room to really sound their best. In my small apartment they just couldn't image as well as I wanted.
Now also consider that I added some upgrades to the HIIs. I added No Rez (https://017ef43.netsolstores.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=103 (https://017ef43.netsolstores.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=103)) to the insides of the cabinets which made an instant improvement in clarity and seemed to tighten up the bass a bit too. I also upgraded the crossovers with all new parts with much tighter tolerances and remounted them inside for lower crosstalk and improved response. This also took them to another level in clarity. Finally I replaced the stock tweeters with Bob Crites' titanium tweeters which extended the treble and gave the sound more sparkle but without adding excessive brightness. Another worthwhile and inexpensive upgrade.
The Heresy II was a fun and very efficient speaker. But when I heard the KG4.2 (which I've heard was the last model to be designed by the old man) they proved to be superior to the Heresys in all of the areas I faulted except one. The Heresy II seemed to be able handle more power without compression than the 4.2s. The latter definitely have their limits. Both are very efficient. But both made the sex amp lose steam at high volumes. The Heresy was superior in power handling but still sounded better with at least 35 watts. At low to moderate volumes the sex amp was good but after much careful listening I think was just not enough power. In the end though the 4.2s have a much bigger and wider soundstage and imaging and much better bass quality and output.
I've since replaced the crossover of my 4.2s and in turn raised their performance level as well. (Any speaker more than 10 years old should probably have their crossovers changed to newer parts as they tend to drift off spec over time. The crossovers I've seen in these old Klipsch speakers all consisted of low grade parts which I'm sure was a compromise for price) These also seem to want a bigger room than what I have but they still sound great at moderate volumes.
If all you're using is the sex amp for power then you may want to consider a more efficient speaker. The 99dB HeresyIII might be decent but you'll need a sub if you want any bass below 50Hz.
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I've looked at used KG 4.x speakers in the past, but I think I'm leaning towards a three-way, if possible. One of things I didn't like about my RF-5's (or Polks or current Klipsch Icons) was the midrange, whose upper regions seemed too high for the woofers and too low for the horn tweeter to handle capably. A nice, warm mid-horn will do wonders for jazz.
I don't think the S.E.X. amp "running out of steam" will be an issue with me, thankfully, since I listen at very low volumes in a medium-sized living room with wood floors. The 99dB of the Heresy III's at one watt is much louder than I probably would ever play them (which seems to be the Achilles heel of a lot of speakers - most don't "wake up" until high volumes, whereas the Heresys are said to have good qualities at low ones).
I'm waiting to pounce on the first new set of $1000 H3's I see. The usual seller on eBay and Amazon that has what are probably mismatched sets seems not to have any for sale ATM, other than sets with a lacewood finish and no risers (which is a deal-killer for me). Klispch wants $1600/pair for these, not including tax and shipping. Not sure I want to go that route yet.....
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Another option that might be worth exploring is to see if you can get the H3 upgrade kit which is just the drivers and crossover. (They can go right into an H2 cabinet) Then build the boxes yourself or have a cabinet maker do it for you. I would give this some serious consideration because one of the other things that bugged me was the complete lack of bracing inside the cabinets. As long as you get the right internal volume and baffle dimensions it shouldn't be too difficult a project. Might be cheaper to do it this way than buying new ones and you'd get a nicely braced cabinet to boot. Also you could finish the cabinet anyway you liked with paint or veneer.
And you reminded me of another thing I liked about the H2s. The dedicated midrange horn definitely added something special to the sound. Vocals were very fast and present.
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I don't have golden ears and can't describe the nuances others can hear, but here are my thoughts.Presence is a strong point...bass is lacking, but not absent.
I first powered them with a Nakamichi TA-3A which has Nelson Pass designed Stasis power section. When listening loud and long, harsh mid and high caused fatigue. The best thing I ever did was to power them with Bottlehead gear...FPI and Paraglows. Modifications I've done...
Dampen the horns...this is a must. I used plumber's putty on the back of horn and driver...about a 1/4". I believe much of the harshness problem is secondary vibrations picked up from the woofer. The music became clearer with more detail and a lot easier to listen to.A tip I picked up from reading Lynn Olsen...felt around the mouth of the horns. I used drawer felt padding from Lowe's with the sticky back. About 1" around the mouth and going back into the throat a few inches.
Replaced the caps in the mid and high crossover with Auricaps...better detail.
Added bracing inside the box on all sides...2"x2" pieces glued and screwed in a cross. This took the sound of the enclosure out of the bass. Added foam padding to the sides and filled the box loosely with polyester. Subs would definitely help these speakers. My mother-in-law has a pair of H2s exactly like mine, but unmodified that I used to A/B...no comparison. I hope this helps.
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Great idea with putting putty on the horns. I wondered if there was something I could do to damp vibrations in the horn like that and now you gave me something to work on and the best part is it's a cheap tweak.
Thanks!
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Since Klipsch has a return policy on their Heritage products, I went ahead and put in an order for the H3's about 6 weeks ago. They arrived earlier this week, and I think I made the right choice! They are smooth, image well, and actually have a lot of bass, due to the new woofers (K-28?). My jaw dropped as I turned them up with some Sonny Rollins - it was like a saxophone was playing in my room instead of me playing a record of a saxophone. Plus, they practically shatter windows with the S.E.X. amp turned all the way up (the Quickie helps here as well - putting in a robust signal helps the S.E.X. amp achieve to its potential). Practical listening levels seem to be on the order of 1/4 to 1/2 watt.
I'll post some more extensive observations once they break in, which will take some time. So far, though, I think these speakers were made for the S.E.X. amp - and are definitely voiced differently than older Heresies (i.e., it's pretty clear that Klipsch intends these for use as mains). Bass doesn't go down below 50Hz, but neither does most of my music (older jazz). On the upside, my MQ irons and some better coupling caps arrive this week, which should take things to yet another level....
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I’m considering this pairing and that’s my reason for digging up this old thread. If anyone has experience with s.e.x. 3.0 and HIII’s i’d sure love to hear about it.
Should edit: Bought HIII's. Can't wait to get the s.e.x. 3.0! Will try a good write-up!
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I've been using Klipsch LaScala's with Crites tweeters and crossovers for years with a Stereomour that I have replaced the stock 2A3s with JJ 2A3 40 tubes (in a 300B bottle). Sound is very clean and not bright at all. More than enough power to make your ears bleed using only about 1/2 the power of the Stereomour, but only because of volume. I have also used this amp with Hereseys and Klipschorns. Both are easily driven by the Stereomour and sound VERY good. Friends have bought Stereomours because of the sound of this rig.
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2 days ago i finally got the top plate of S3X back from the anodizing company. Yesterday i had a free saturday so assembled it and had it done before dinner (+-12h build). In its standard form i enjoy it a lot! Listened to SEX all day today trough the Heresy III's while working on a Mainline kit.
For now with Heresy: its loud enough; 99db/w/m with a mere 2 watts make party volume for me. Never over 1/4 of the volume pot range. From 1/2 way i'm having my neighbours coming over for a chat ^^.
It's super quiet. Not the faintest hum with my ear against the speaker.
For its sound: Soundstage is way better than the oldschool NAD 7020 amp (NAD 3020 alike) i was using before.
Highs are sweet, mids are warm, bass is full and soft / not the tightest but the planned to install C4S kit will help this part a lot. Overall presentation is nice, polite, detailed, making some very engaging music!
For now the Klipsch Heresy and Bottlehead S.E.X. combination has delivered everything i've been hoping for.
I'll take it really slow on "upgrades", just one every month or so. (failed). In a year i might be able to report back for a complete review.
https://bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?topic=11175.msg101720