Bottlehead Forum
Bottlehead Kits => Legacy Kit Products => Quickie => Topic started by: Jamier on March 24, 2017, 09:34:49 AM
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I built a Quickie today. This thing is very cool! I put the tube sockets up on Silicon O-rings and spaced the retainers
with tiny bronze lockwashers to give the whole apparatus a little squishiness.I don't know if it helps the microphonics, as I didn't try it without them, but I do have to tap the chassis prettty hard, right next to the tubes to get it to ring.
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Looks great and it sounds like you have made progress on the microphonics front.
The transparent top plate is really cool!
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James,
What great idea using the o-rings. I have been thinking about how I would isolate the tubes if I was to rebuild my Quickie.
I really like the sound of mine and just upgraded the output caps and it to a great sounding preamp and gave it a little more detail and openness.
Enjoy, and would like to hear your impressions of the Quickie.
Brad
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Those transparent Quickies are tempting...I think I'll rebuild mine soon ;)
Please, let us know how it performs in the context of your system!
Ciao
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The o-ring idea is definitely a cool one, though it would probably mean de-soldering all of the socket pins to implement that on mine :-p Have you noticed any noise switching between inputs? For me I get sort of a "clunky" noise. Thanks!
Dave
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The o-ring idea is definitely a cool one, though it would probably mean de-soldering all of the socket pins
Why? I think you can cut the o-ring, so no need to desolder anything.
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To make the o-ring effective don't you need to completely isolate the bolts with o-rings top and bottom, bolts should not touch the top plate. Wire hole insulators plugs (can not remember the exact name) could also be used.
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Why? I think you can cut the o-ring, so no need to desolder anything.
That would be too simple! Wish I thought of that :) Where do you buy the o rings, and what size are they?
Dave
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Leland is probably right.I think it would be more effective if the bolts were also isolated.I have not heard a Quickie with the tubes rigidly mounted to the chassis, so I think some of you would be better judges of this scheme than I. As far as the retainer ring is concerned, I did line the internal angle with RTV silicon and allowed it to set before mounting the tubes. You can see where some of it squishes out in the close-up photo. I first tried the Quickie in front of a Stereomour II. I was impressed with the overall tone and presence but, the SII is a fantastic sounding integrated amp. So, to really test what the Quickie brings to a lesser amp I put in front of some Class D monos that I have (IQ Audios). Wow! These don't sound like the same amps. Big improvement. However, the ringing gets more pronounced with these, so I put some pieces of Deflex under the feet of the base and that helped a lot. I also loosened the bolts on the tube retainers to get more spring from those Bronze lock washers and that also helped. It still rings, but you have to touch it pretty hard to make it ring. Before the Deflex and backing the bolts off, it would ring from a touch to the shelf that I have it on.This approach does not cure the ringing, but I suspect it helps. It will probably turn out that a multiple tweak approach will be required to eliminate the ring (if that's even possible). I think all you need to do is adjust enough things to keep the ring from being audible while your in the listening position. I totally think it's worth the effort, this little pre- sounds phenomenal!
Jamie
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I made the O-rings. It's pretty easy. You inject 100% RTV Silicon into vinyl tubing that has a 1/8 inch internal diameter. I cut my tubing into 4 inch lengths before injecting the silicon, otherwise the back pressure gets pretty high. You let it sit for a week or so and then cut the vinyl tubing length wise with an Exacto or utility knife.Cut carefully, you want to just penetrate the vinyl but not the silicon.Hold the leading edge of the vinyl tubing with hemostats or needle nose pliers, this will keep your fingers out of the way(I, of course, learned the hard way).Usually, if you cut most of the way through, you can split the vinyl by spreading it with your fingernail.
Once you split the vinyl you peel the length of silicon out of the vinyl.DON'T throw away the cut vinyl tubing! You will need it to complete the O-ring.Cut the Silicon into lengths of 1 3/4 inch.Roll some paper up creating a tube with a 5/8 inch diameter.Take the cut vinyl tubing and cut some 5/16 inch pieces.Insert one end of your cured Silicon into the 5/16 cut vinyl. Add some fresh silicon in the other end followed by the opposite end of the cured Silicon. You'll see excess squish out.Now push the paper tube over the joined o-ring. This will keep the ends from slipping out of the splice while this whole thing cures.You will end up with an O-ring that is slightly smaller than the tube socket. I tried this with larger diameter O-rings, but when I mounted the socket and retainer, the socket was not evenly supported by the O-ring. I decided that the o-ring does need to stretch a little so that it fits tightly enough to not pinch out when the retainer is tightened. That's why I don't think that you want to cut the o-ring before you install it.You might be able to lift the socket of a completed Quickie enough to get the O-ring on,but you will have to stretch it more since the top of the socket has a larger diameter than the pin end.If there is enough interest in this, and with Doc's Blessing, I could post a step by step pictorial but I don't want to clog up the Forum with something that might turn out to be a big nothing. Remember, I haven't heard a Quickie in the stock configuration, so i can't say for sure that this improves anything.
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Everyone needs to take a look at the work done by Thomas Mayer on Vinylsavor, especially how he isolates the tubes from the top plate. Some of the most beautiful builds I have ever seen, I get a lot of ideas from him. Used his isolation technique on my BeePre.
It just occurred to me that I had never mentioned that my custom Quickie never had a problem with microphonics but I did with the stock build, (using the same tubes). The top plate on the custom version was 1/4" maple burl and the sides were 1 1/2" chechen wood, the legs are two inch ebony with Isonode anti-vibration feet. Because even with the stock BeePre there was microphonics, but almost none with my usual custom build, mass is the main difference here. Just an observation!
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Leland,
Is your custom Quickie quiet with every amp that you have used it in front of? The reason I ask is that when I had it before the SII, I got the ring down to a real low level. When in front of the Class D amps,it magnified the ringing several fold.I suppose padding the inputs of the amps would help.How is that done?
Thanks for your time, Jamie
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My amp is a TDA7297 and I have no ringing problems. The input is sensitive so I can only use the the first part of my volume control, which is an eBay DACT.
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Jamier, I have used the custom quickie with the following amps, no noise!
Paramounts; Yamamoto A-08S; Sex; and Diytube Get-Set-Go (great little amp).
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I made the O-rings. It's pretty easy. You inject 100% RTV Silicon into vinyl tubing that has a 1/8 inch internal diameter. I cut my tubing into 4 inch lengths before injecting the silicon, otherwise the back pressure gets pretty high. You let it sit for a week or so and then cut the vinyl tubing length wise with an Exacto or utility knife.Cut carefully, you want to just penetrate the vinyl but not the silicon.Hold the leading edge of the vinyl tubing with hemostats or needle nose pliers, this will keep your fingers out of the way(I, of course, learned the hard way).Usually, if you cut most of the way through, you can split the vinyl by spreading it with your fingernail.
Once you split the vinyl you peel the length of silicon out of the vinyl.DON'T throw away the cut vinyl tubing! You will need it to complete the O-ring.Cut the Silicon into lengths of 1 3/4 inch.Roll some paper up creating a tube with a 5/8 inch diameter.Take the cut vinyl tubing and cut some 5/16 inch pieces.Insert one end of your cured Silicon into the 5/16 cut vinyl. Add some fresh silicon in the other end followed by the opposite end of the cured Silicon. You'll see excess squish out.Now push the paper tube over the joined o-ring. This will keep the ends from slipping out of the splice while this whole thing cures.You will end up with an O-ring that is slightly smaller than the tube socket. I tried this with larger diameter O-rings, but when I mounted the socket and retainer, the socket was not evenly supported by the O-ring. I decided that the o-ring does need to stretch a little so that it fits tightly enough to not pinch out when the retainer is tightened. That's why I don't think that you want to cut the o-ring before you install it.You might be able to lift the socket of a completed Quickie enough to get the O-ring on,but you will have to stretch it more since the top of the socket has a larger diameter than the pin end.If there is enough interest in this, and with Doc's Blessing, I could post a step by step pictorial but I don't want to clog up the Forum with something that might turn out to be a big nothing. Remember, I haven't heard a Quickie in the stock configuration, so i can't say for sure that this improves anything.
Cool thanks! I'll have to add that to my list of Quickie mods to try :)
Dave
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Dave,
If you try this, or if you find some premade silicon o-rings that fit the bill, please let us know if it is an improvement. I've been thinking more about what Leland said and it gave me another idea that I think I'm going to try. It's a little more complicated than the O-rings but I think it has potential so I will update this post as it moves along. If you have any questions, etc about making the rings please post and I will respond ASAP.
Jamie
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I believe the easiest way to isolate the tube socket would be to use Rubber or silicone Shock Absorber Vibration Isolator Mounts from Amazon, the small ones would be a perfect fit.
I would do this to my semi stock crack, but since last November I am no longer in the audio listening and building mode, came down with Sudden Sensorineural Hearing Loss, I can no longer hear music. I do have several Bottlehead projects to finish but there just isn't a lot of motivation.
Back to woodworking (fancy rolling pins right now) and photography, have to keep busy.
Lee Hankins
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Hi Lee,
Sorry about your hearing loss. Is there any chance that it will return? I was wondering if you might post pictures of your custom Quickie, I would love to see that.
Jamie
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Jamie, thank you, there is no cure, they don't even know what causes it.
There are a lot of photos of it somewhere on this forum, will try to find them for you.
Pictures are under Custom Quickie, August 18, 2010.
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Hi Lee,
I just saw your custom Quickie. All I can say is WOW! That is just unbelievable.Did you think you would be getting praise for that seven years later? Something tells me you'll be getting praise for that seventy years from now.
Thanks for pointing me in the right direction,
Jamie
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I believe the easiest way to isolate the tube socket would be to use Rubber or silicone Shock Absorber Vibration Isolator Mounts from Amazon, the small ones would be a perfect fit.
I would do this to my semi stock crack, but since last November I am no longer in the audio listening and building mode, came down with Sudden Sensorineural Hearing Loss, I can no longer hear music. I do have several Bottlehead projects to finish but there just isn't a lot of motivation.
Back to woodworking (fancy rolling pins right now) and photography, have to keep busy.
Lee Hankins
Lee,
How much of a hearing loss is it? My wife is a hearing specialist, which got me wondering. If it is severe enough, sometimes a coclear implant can be an option.
Dave
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Dave, thank you, I have been told by three Doctors that there is nothing that can be done, I have not given up, but I will be honest a cochlear implant was not discussed, do not know why. I have read about a new procedure where the ear hairs can be regrown. Lots of options I hope.
I hate not being able to listen to my music!!!
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Hi Lee,
Do you know what condition caused the hearing loss? The wife can probably recommend what type of doctor to see. Can't imagine not being able to listen to music, hope they can find a solution!
Dave
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Dave there is no cure, they do not even know what causes it, there is a large bang within the head, some theories but nothing solid. Very difficult area to study. Today's attempt is to inject three steroid injections every two weeks, still no clinical proof if this even helps. Just an attempt to give the patient some hope, it can cure itself, odds are usually not good.
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After looking at Lee's build I realize how important chassis mass is to the quiet operation of this wonderful little preamp. I have also discovered that, unlike some larger tubes, these very small tubes can be easily overdamped, muddying the sound.With those thoughts in mind I am experimenting with damping the socket rather than the tube.I placed the O-rings under the sockets which I think helps( I didn't try it without them, it just seemed like a good idea at the time). But, it does ring with the O-rings in place so I thought it might be beneficial to weight the socket in someway, pulling the socket into the O-ring and hopefully quieting the tube. I did this by hanging a weight from the center pin of the socket. In addition I tightened the retainers in an attempt to reduce movement. I used 12 lb. test Fishing Leader and a 1 lb. lead weight suspended from each socket center pin. This seems to help a lot. Here's a couple pictures.I have some other things to try yet.Sorry, the bottom pic is rotated. Imagine that the weight is hanging.
Jamie
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these very small tubes can be easily overdamped, muddying the sound.
I don't quite see the logic in saying that damping the movement of the components in the tube can be make them more muddy, implying less controlled transients. My hunch is that you have found out that the system is a little rolled off for some other reason and the 3S4s were adding some resonance that emphasized the treble a bit. My inclination would be to damp the heck out of them and look at cabling, impedance, etc. to see if there is some other cause for the muddiness.
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This is AMAZING. Awesome transparent plate!
What interconnect connectors are those? I see them every once in a while and I'm curious.
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Those are Audioquest 90 degree RCA connectors. I used them to lower the cable height but, they put too much pressure on the center pins of the RCA females and now I have a poor connection to both inputs and outputs. The center pins in the chassis mount females are loose now and I have to change them out. I'm getting "popping" in both channels. They seem great at first, but based on my experience I don't recommend them, at least for this application.
Jamie
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Jamier, I have scrounged in my junk bins and came up with these two versions, just some additional ideas and breaks in between taxes.
https://goo.gl/photos/Hqnarxtn6EvSsraH6
Anyone let me know if this works, thank you.
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Lee,
Thanks for that, but I was not able to view those images. Maybe it's some software incompatibility. Anyway, thanks to your influence I came up with another idea. Those small O-rings were not helping all that much so I created a simple mold and made some larger rings that decouple the socket from the chassis. I used an auto polymerizing duplicating silicon that is real "squishy". The socket is weighted and the tube is now damped with a weighted Copper damper like many Bottleheads have made. Now the ring can only be heard when you tap the tube or hit the chassis really hard.Here's some pics:
Jamie
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Jamie, I apologize for the pictures and to everyone else, of course they work for me, as they should, will try to fix my stupidity tomorrow.
What I came up with is simpler and should be more effective, yours is way too complicated for the average builder in my opinion. It is neat looking.
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Jamie,
That is great work. I'm not having any real issue with tube ringing. Only when I adjust the volume or change the input.
Lee,
Rally would like to see what you did to isolate the tubes. You can upload the pictures though the BH forum when posting.
Brad
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Brad it seems to be working now, check below. My photos are stored on Google photo, maybe I have figured out how to make it work?
https://goo.gl/photos/Hqnarxtn6EvSsraH6
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Dave, thank you, I have been told by three Doctors that there is nothing that can be done, I have not given up, but I will be honest a cochlear implant was not discussed, do not know why. I have read about a new procedure where the ear hairs can be regrown. Lots of options I hope.
I hate not being able to listen to my music!!!
Have you been to an Audiologist? Usually this condition is caused by another disease. For instance, there is one called meneer's. Not sure who you went to so far, but if you haven't gone to an Audiologist, that's prob the next step.
Dave
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I put the Q in front of an NHT xd system that I have had for years, but have used very little. I have had a love/hate relationship with the xd; it is very high resolution, but also very noisy and very fickle when it comes to what is connected to it. Also the satellites and the sub have metal cones and at times they sound, well, metallic. The other problem is the system is very lean sounding in the midbass and always sounded like something was missing. The high point is that the vocal clarity of the xd is extremely good and the image is pretty good as well. With the Quickie in the mix the metallic edge is gone, the image is improved and while it still sounds a little lean in the midbass, it isn't as noticeable with that DHT goodness in the equation. The Q takes rough edges off the system and really makes this active speaker shine. I'll be using this alot in the summer when it's just too hot to run tube amps.
Jamie
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Jamie,
Do you have the PJCCS installed? I just fired up my Quickie again after a couple of months of non-use, and found that there is plenty of bass with just Def Tech BP6B tower speakers. It might have something to do with choice of tubes too. Makes me want to break out a different set of tubes and do some tube rolling! What tubes are in your Q?
Dave
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Hey Dave,
I don't have PJCCS in yet. I spent a lot of time on those rings and some wire looms to reduce the ring associated with the volume control. This thing is so quiet now, even when in front of really sensitive amps. I'm currently using RCA 3s4s, but I have had some Radiotechniques in also and I'm not sure which I like better. The Radiotechniques seem to have a little better midrange and the RCAs seem to have a better top end. I have had so much fun tweeking this thing. I know there are better sounding preamps, but not pound for pound.I have also replaced the 160uF Nichicons with 220/50v Elna Silmics and the output caps are now 2.2uF Mundorf S/O.Those changes made a noticeable improvement.
Jamie
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It's interesting to see how different mods can make a difference and sound good for some applications, and not so good for others. I wasn't getting much treble in our new apartment (went from hardwood floors in our old LR to wall to wall carpeting). Westinghouse tubes sounded great in the old place (slightly less treble) and the answer here seems to be a different set of tubes that came with the quickie (they have green lettering, not sure what they are). The tubes used to be damped with some metalized tape and copper couplings.. now it sounds better without.. go figure :P I almost think you can make the Quickie whatever you want it to be, and just need tweak it to your setup.
Dave
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It has been a long time since I built one of these kits. I did do some work on the damping of the tube and socket. I was lucky to find Sorbothane rings that were easy to work with and just the right size. At one point I made a Quickie that had the top plate isolated from the chassis, but I don't recall what product that I used.