SEX 3.0 Upgrade Options?

lyons238 · 3594

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Offline lyons238

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on: January 20, 2019, 04:26:19 PM
Hello,

I just ordered a SEX 3.0 with the C4S upgrade. I was thinking it would be a good idea to upgrade a few things upon first build. I'm an experienced solderer (I build drones) but I don't know all about what caps I should upgrade along the signal and output path. Also, if there's anything else I should upgrade while i'm at it like the stereo Gold Point 100k v24 attenuator. What attenuator comes stock?

If you could just give some specific part/cap names and a description of where it's used that would be helpful. I've tried searching but it's just too many different options with not much explanation for which actual caps are being replaced and what works well with the kit.

Thanks!



Offline Doc B.

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Reply #1 on: January 20, 2019, 05:27:03 PM
I was thinking it would be a good idea to upgrade a few things upon first build.

Build it stock first, make sure it works, then add upgrades. Otherwise we can't effectively assist with troubleshooting if you have any issues.

Dan "Doc B." Schmalle
President For Life
Bottlehead Corp.


Offline lyons238

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Reply #2 on: January 21, 2019, 02:34:20 AM
I was thinking it would be a good idea to upgrade a few things upon first build.

Build it stock first, make sure it works, then add upgrades. Otherwise we can't effectively assist with troubleshooting if you have any issues.

I knew you would say that, Dan :). The reason I'm considering upgrading some minor things is because I plan to wrap a lot of wire in tech flex and just do a very neat install that may not be quite as easy to work on. Things will be easier to find but take more work to undo and redo.

Is something like the Gold Point Attenuator worth it to upgrade off the bat without risking difficult troubleshooting?
I was thinking it would be a good idea to upgrade a few things upon first build.

Build it stock first, make sure it works, then add upgrades. Otherwise we can't effectively assist with troubleshooting if you have any issues.



Offline lyons238

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Reply #3 on: January 22, 2019, 03:18:09 AM
So I ordered a PEC pot considering I think I'll like the pot better than a stepped attenuator for headphone use. I've heard the PEC and TKD pots are the two best somewhat affordable pots. Plus the PEC has a good track record, is sealed, and wires up just like the stock so this should simplify my build.

Now just trying to find out what caps and simple things I can upgrade on the signal/output path.



Offline Natural Sound

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Reply #4 on: January 22, 2019, 04:27:50 PM
So I ordered a PEC pot considering I think I'll like the pot better than a stepped attenuator for headphone use. I've heard the PEC and TKD pots are the two best somewhat affordable pots. Plus the PEC has a good track record, is sealed, and wires up just like the stock so this should simplify my build.

Now just trying to find out what caps and simple things I can upgrade on the signal/output path.

The stock Solen (parafeed) and Dayton (interstage) caps are quality parts. I hate to sound like a broken record but I'd recommend trying them first. The connection points for upgrades in the future wont interfere with your wiring loom. The S.E.X. 3.0 layout is easier to work with than the S.E.X. 2.1 layout. Another hat tip to Bottlehead for always refining their circuits and layouts.

That said I like Mundorf line of capacitors. They have a range of products to fit a variety of budgets.

If you are using the c4s upgrade upgrading the 499 ohm resistor may have a positive effect on the sound. I use a Vishay/Dale RN55 series in this position. It kind of depends on how good your ears are to determine the benefits.

The original concept is about the eXperiment. But as it has been said many times before. It is important to have a working stock platform before changing a bunch of parts. Unless of course your experience level is such that you don't require any technical support from Bottlehead.



Offline lyons238

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Reply #5 on: January 22, 2019, 05:22:45 PM
i have decided im going to keep it stock for now outside of the PEC pot, different cardas RCA's and im going to go a bit nuts and shrink wrap, tech flex, and tidy things up a bit.

im still open to hearing upgrades for down the road after i get some time with the stock unit. im a capable builder just not completely educated on component values and electrical engineering. though i am familiar as i work in the pcb design software industry (not on the super technical side).

thanks!



Offline lyons238

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Reply #6 on: January 29, 2019, 07:28:46 AM
hey guys I have some high quality cat7 plenum cable that's rated at 300v, that should be fine to replace the cat5e wire that comes with the kit id imagine right? im not sure the specs on that but I prefer my cat7 as the insulation quality is very good and it's a bit thicker 22awg solid core and best of all it has mylar shielding on each individual twisted pair AND a 50% coverage copper braided shield so I feel it's just a better cable that stock.

I'm then looking for some good replacements for the shielded twisted power switch wire and the wiring to the tubes that use that same twisted pair shielded cable. I have yet to find anything on that though.

lastly, how come the kit instructions don't heat shrink a lot of the exposed terminals like on the IEC and what not. And would it be fine to use some solid core teflon wire instead of the tiny little drain wires? I don't like the look of the tiny little drain wires cutting across. just looking to upgrade some wiring from a looks, safety and functionality standpoint and if there's some potentially added sonic benefits, great but im not counting on it.



Offline Doc B.

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Reply #7 on: January 29, 2019, 08:40:39 AM
With all due respect, are you telling us that you need to fix stuff we did wrong and then asking our blessing because you are not sure if you are fixing it right?

Dan "Doc B." Schmalle
President For Life
Bottlehead Corp.


Offline lyons238

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Reply #8 on: January 29, 2019, 10:09:21 AM
With all due respect, are you telling us that you need to fix stuff we did wrong and then asking our blessing because you are not sure if you are fixing it right?

if that's how you want to take it man. I never said I was fixing anything...in fact I said I know it won't make a real difference it's just my preference for aesthetics. I just prefer to build with a bit thicker wire and use insulation from mostly preference but other stuff that I've built I've always insulated the power lead terminal and what not so I was just asking. is that a crime?

also you have to sell the kit's at a margin so maybe some of us want to use some higher quality components but you don't list the specs of the components/wires used. I already have higher quality cat7 cable on hand and I was just wondering about the power ground wire because I don't like the way it looks and how dinky it is. I also don't like bare wire chilling so planned to use some solid core insulated. i guess it's a crime to question before using some minor, non-stock materials in the EXPERIMENTAL kit these days. I guess next time ill refrain from these sort of questions and use a different forum.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2019, 10:16:16 AM by lyons238 »



Deke609

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Reply #9 on: January 29, 2019, 11:19:41 AM
I'm big fan of going overboard with shielding, but not because I can claim it improves SQ - mostly just for the fun of doing it.  I have zilch EE or other scientific training. So what follows are just my almost entirely uninformed musings.

... I prefer my cat7 as the insulation quality is very good and it's a bit thicker 22awg solid core and best of all it has mylar shielding on each individual twisted pair AND a 50% coverage copper braided shield so I feel it's just a better cable that stock.

The impact of wire gauge on signal wire is discussed at length on various audio forums.  I have no opinion on what impact it might have for input signal wiring carrying a relatively weak signal.  On my most recent Stereomour build I substituted some 22 or 20 awg cryo-treated OCC copper wire (remnants that I got for cheap) on one set of inputs.  The amp is still breaking and I haven't yet done any AxB comparisons.

Re mylar shielding each pair of wires.  I assume this is to prevent one signal in the cable from interfering with another signal in the cable?  My guess would be that the potential for such interference over 12 inches of cable that at any one time carries only one set of weak left and right signal inputs is negligible, but could be an issue over much longer runs and/or for higher power signals, and/or where each pair in the cable carries a different signal at the same time. Dunno.  My guess is that the bigger concern with weak signals is to protect them from stronger outside interference -- e.g., from nearby transformers or high power wiring.  My approach (again, mostly just for fun) is to run the entire cat cable through solid copper tubing that is wired to ground. I use refridgerant tubing - it's cheap and easy to bend and cut.  I've also doubled up the shielding on occasions, by shielding individual wires in tinned copper braid (which gives about 80% coverage) and then running them all through solid copper tubing. But these approaches might not appeal to you aesthetically.  I kinda like the amateur mod look.  And it can be a real PITA to solder drain wire to the braid and copper tubing and them run the drain to ground. And the added volume of all that extra shielding can make wire routing a bit challenging.

Quote
I'm then looking for some good replacements for the shielded twisted power switch wire and the wiring to the tubes that use that same twisted pair shielded cable. I have yet to find anything on that though.

I use copper tubing for the straight run wiring to the switch, and copper braid for the more bendy runs.  Again, all wired to chassis ground.  The braid is wrapped in shrink tube or non-conductive tape to prevent contact with other terminals and wires.

Quote
... how come the kit instructions don't heat shrink a lot of the exposed terminals like on the IEC and what not.

Covering all the terminals could make resistance and voltage testing difficult - where would you attach the leads? It would also make it difficult to troubleshoot soldering issues and to make subsequent wiring mods (e.g., that require a new attachment to the same terminal).

Good luck with the build!

cheers,

Derek




Offline Paul Birkeland

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Reply #10 on: January 29, 2019, 12:09:56 PM
I was just wondering about the power ground wire because I don't like the way it looks and how dinky it is.
You are welcome to put in 00 AWG in there if you want, but going larger may cause problems that we can't foresee, and we will be less than enthusiastic about providing tech support if things go wrong.

I've always insulated the power lead terminal
Which one is that?

also you have to sell the kit's at a margin so maybe some of us want to use some higher quality components but you don't list the specs of the components/wires used.
The specs are easily accessible.  Most of them are in the manual.  Most of this has also been discussed periodically on the forum.
I already have higher quality cat7 cable on hand
Cat7 is a HOT MESS to work with.   I don't really care if you want to use it, but I would hate to see a bunch of people read this post, go buy CAT7, then try to use it in their kits. For the purposes of a SEX amp, I would completely disagree that it's higher quality.  If you're wiring up a data center, that is a different story.   
I also don't like bare wire chilling so planned to use some solid core insulated.
The buss wire in the back is all earthed, but there's nothing wrong with heatshrinking it or using something else if you prefer.

i guess it's a crime to question before using some minor, non-stock materials in the EXPERIMENTAL kit these days.
We are trying our hardest to help you succeed in building your kit, that's all. 

Paul "PB" Birkeland

Bottlehead Grunt & The Repro Man


Offline lyons238

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Reply #11 on: January 29, 2019, 03:31:34 PM
Derek - thanks for the input and im on the same page with everything you said. i know what im talking about here isn't going to make a real difference unless i have some crazy noise going on somehow. but you're right it is sort of fun.

BTW i would leave a small spot to test with my probe but it would be a tiny hole in the heat shrink. i've done it with other things before but that's all personal preference i just didn't know if it was common to do.

Paul - thank you for the detailed responses. i understand what you mean and i do not plan on deviating much from stock. just a couple of wires here and there and the pec pot. I was just asking this stuff before hand if it's A-okay to do. i'd imagine the stock cat5 is 26awg? so the 23awg i was going to use i doubt would make a difference. i think iv'e seen people use stranded canare RCA's cable that's 21awg. but if anyone thinks its a problem let me know.

i do understand cat7 is tough to work with. i am an experienced solderer and builder so im not worried about working with it. just haven't done so with audio applications aside from building cables. my experience is with car audio, diy racing/freestyle drones and back in the day rc cars, so less finicky and certainly less voodoo like we like to get into. dabbling in them dark arts we are.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2019, 03:40:38 PM by lyons238 »



Offline Jamier

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Reply #12 on: January 29, 2019, 03:31:56 PM
If you don't build it stock, you won't know if you're "upgrades" actually improved the amp. Actually, you really need to build two, one as a stock reference and the other for the purpose of upgrading. If you do this you will probably find that the stock amp is so refined that it is pretty hard to improve. I have not  built a SEX,  but I have experience with other of their amps and I have found my upgrades had only minimal gains in performance.

Jamie
« Last Edit: January 29, 2019, 04:00:22 PM by Jamier »

James Robbins


Offline lyons238

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Reply #13 on: January 30, 2019, 03:40:29 AM
If you don't build it stock, you won't know if you're "upgrades" actually improved the amp. Actually, you really need to build two, one as a stock reference and the other for the purpose of upgrading. If you do this you will probably find that the stock amp is so refined that it is pretty hard to improve. I have not  built a SEX,  but I have experience with other of their amps and I have found my upgrades had only minimal gains in performance.

Jamie

I'm not expecting performance upgrades really. If it helps a tiny bit then cool but it's more just my building preferences and a little bit of fun tinkering around. I understand the build philosophy around here but I'm just discussing some potential options. I very may well build it completely stock outside of the PEC pot which is a direct drop in and some Cardas RCA's.