Help Understanding Tubes

Toys4Boys · 7694

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Toys4Boys

  • Full Member
  • ***
    • Posts: 77
on: August 27, 2023, 04:21:36 AM
Hi all! Just ordered an Eros 2 and am doing my due diligence, reading the manual, searching posts etc. I have done some searching but am not finding what I'm looking for so please point me in the right direction. As the title says I am trying to gain greater insight into how tubes are used in the Eros. I have what I consider a very nice system and have spent much effort lowering the noise floor thru out the chain. My goal with the Eros is to have fun, learn more and add a bit of meat on the bones of the music. Its not that my system is thin but I'd love to improve the harmonic texture and sound stage, but not at the expense of adding appreciable noise. With that said would some kind soul get me started on this journey?

Thanks



Offline Paul Joppa

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 5830
Reply #1 on: August 27, 2023, 04:59:58 AM
It's hard to address this question without knowing your context - specifically, how much do you know already about circuits in general, and tube circuits specifically?

If you have some background, I'd recommend the book "Designing High-Fidelity Tube Preamps" by Merlin Blencowe. as a good starting point. Here's John Broskie'sreview:

https://www.tubecad.com/2016/05/blog0345.htm

If you have specific questions, I can address the Eros design.

Paul Joppa


Offline Toys4Boys

  • Full Member
  • ***
    • Posts: 77
Reply #2 on: August 27, 2023, 05:30:10 AM
Sadly my electronics knowledge is limited as is my understanding of tubes, most of my experience has been playing with tons of audio gear, selling high end audio for over 40 years, and some basic repair skills.

Thank you for the suggestion, I will look into it.

What I'm trying to get a better understanding of is the purpose of the tubes used in the Eros 2 and their effect on noise and harmonic structure etc. For instance does the EF86 have any more effect on the noise, harmonics etc. than the 6922 or 12AU7?





Offline Paul Joppa

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 5830
Reply #3 on: August 27, 2023, 08:36:41 AM
OK, I can address those questions.

The EF86 is the first stage, so the signal is very small and it will dominate the tube-rush noise. In the classic textbooks, noise is primarily covered for radio frequencies where shot noise dominates. (Shot noise is basically the electrons hitting the plate at random times, and is pure white noise, equal energy per unit bandwidth.) Pentodes are about 3-4 dB noisier than triodes for shot noise, which has earned them a reputation for being noisier in general. But at audio frequencies, Blencowe has shown that 1/f noise generated in the cathode coating of emissive material dominates. This noise is inversely proportional to frequency, and dominates below typically 10kHz, so there is little to choose between them. The 1/f noise depends on the details of the cathode coating and the impurities in the metal sleeve, and is hard to predict. The EF86 earned its reputation for good sound by its use in studio microphone preamps, so you might expect it to sound good in a phono preamp - and it does.

On the other hand, the first stage has low distortion because the signal is small, and distortion falls with signal level - especially higher-order distortion. Distortion is dominated by the second and last stage, the 6922. It still has substantial headroom so the distortion is small and mostly second harmonic.

Power supply noise is substantially reduced by the 12AU7 high-voltage regulator, and further reduced by the current-source plate loads. It has no discernible effect on noise or distortion.

That leaves ground noise, microphonics, and radio-frequency interference (RFI) to round out the list of common noises. The EF86 has an internal shield, as well as the external shield used in Eros, to address RFI; it is also designed for minimal microphony. (Ground noise is not dependent on tube selection.)

Paul Joppa


Offline Toys4Boys

  • Full Member
  • ***
    • Posts: 77
Reply #4 on: August 28, 2023, 02:19:56 AM
Thank you, this is the kind of info that I was looking for!
« Last Edit: August 28, 2023, 02:31:33 AM by Toys4Boys »



Offline Toys4Boys

  • Full Member
  • ***
    • Posts: 77
Reply #5 on: August 30, 2023, 05:50:45 AM
OK, I can address those questions.

The EF86 is the first stage, so the signal is very small and it will dominate the tube-rush noise. In the classic textbooks, noise is primarily covered for radio frequencies where shot noise dominates. (Shot noise is basically the electrons hitting the plate at random times, and is pure white noise, equal energy per unit bandwidth.) Pentodes are about 3-4 dB noisier than triodes for shot noise, which has earned them a reputation for being noisier in general. But at audio frequencies, Blencowe has shown that 1/f noise generated in the cathode coating of emissive material dominates. This noise is inversely proportional to frequency, and dominates below typically 10kHz, so there is little to choose between them. The 1/f noise depends on the details of the cathode coating and the impurities in the metal sleeve, and is hard to predict. The EF86 earned its reputation for good sound by its use in studio microphone preamps, so you might expect it to sound good in a phono preamp - and it does.

On the other hand, the first stage has low distortion because the signal is small, and distortion falls with signal level - especially higher-order distortion. Distortion is dominated by the second and last stage, the 6922. It still has substantial headroom so the distortion is small and mostly second harmonic.

Power supply noise is substantially reduced by the 12AU7 high-voltage regulator, and further reduced by the current-source plate loads. It has no discernible effect on noise or distortion.

That leaves ground noise, microphonics, and radio-frequency interference (RFI) to round out the list of common noises. The EF86 has an internal shield, as well as the external shield used in Eros, to address RFI; it is also designed for minimal microphony. (Ground noise is not dependent on tube selection.)

So does that mean that the EF86 is potentially the largest contributor to noise, obviously any noise at this stage will just be amplified. Does the 6922 have the greatest effect on SQ, harmonic structure etc.?



Offline hmbscott

  • Full Member
  • ***
    • Posts: 121
Reply #6 on: August 30, 2023, 06:34:15 AM
As I understand what Paul has said, I think it's fair to say that of the noise that can be attributed to tubes, the EF86 is likely the primary contributor. However, other non-tube noise sources may well be the primary contributors. Paul didn't mention it, but I have seen discussed on other threads, that tube rush in the EF86 can be significant with very low output phono cartridges, and so feeding the Eros with a suitable cartridge signal strength is crucial to achieving good noise performance. Paul, please correct me if I am wrong.

With respect to "harmonic structure", which I take to be synonymous with "distortion", the 6922 produces most of the tube related distortion, albeit at a low level, and thus most of the "harmonic structure" that characterizes the Eros II.

Scott
[Ortofon 2M Bronze > U-Turn Theory > Eros II] & [iMac via USB > Denafrips Ares 2] >> Moreplay >> Schiit Lokius EQ >> Stereomour II >> Hsu ULS-15 Sub >> homemade DML Speakers
Moreplay 2nd out >> [Crack + Speedball > HD 650]


Offline Paul Joppa

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 5830
Reply #7 on: August 30, 2023, 09:55:38 AM
Yes to both posters. I don't remember the numbers exactly, but we've tried Eros on MC cartridges of 0.5mV(?) and they sound great but are too noisy. Normally 2mV or greater is OK, 1mV is marginal. Maybe DocB or PB remembers better.

Paul Joppa


Offline Toys4Boys

  • Full Member
  • ***
    • Posts: 77
Reply #8 on: August 30, 2023, 10:43:01 AM
Thank you both! I have a few cartridges, most notably an ADC XLM III, Micro Acoustics 2002e, a few others and as of this morning an Audio Technica OC9XML, .4mV, running into a Rothwell MCX SUT, then into my Naim Supernait 3 w/ HiCap Dr.

Perhaps a question for another day but I'm wondering if it would be possible to mount the transformers inside the Eros 2.



Offline Doc B.

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 9656
    • Bottlehead
Reply #9 on: August 30, 2023, 01:47:43 PM
2mV is a safe minimum. You can maybe get away with a lower output cart. I recall using a 1mV or so cart at a show once and it was OK. But I can't guarantee whether or not you would find the result acceptable.

The Eros 2 chassis is designed to mount step up transformers in threaded grommet style cans.

Dan "Doc B." Schmalle
President For Life
Bottlehead Corp.