Integrated push pull or switchable tube,el 34,kt88 amp with mm/mc phono

[tubes/horns]

Hello everyone, I'm happy to have joined this forum. Here is my Christmas wish, an integrated tube amp,push pull or switchable to triode with a built in mm/mc phono stage only. No cd, no tape, no tuner, in kit form, oh and it would be SWEET if it had an auto biasing circuit like the Chinese have! Does anyone else have that seemingly elusive dream, or am I all alone with my desire for a phono only one box (besides tt and speakers) system? I think something that simple from Bottlehead would be a sonic wonder! What do you guys think? Thanks!     Chris

[Paul Birkeland]

While it seems like a good plan, there are some problems:

1.  A phono preamp is far more sensitive to electromagnetic radiation, thus to sandwich a phono preamp into the same chassis will mean extra shielding and chassis costs that exceed the separate chassis for the phono preamp, or a very specialized power transformer to run it all. (Specialized means both expensive and very, very physically large) 

2.  A kit with all of this in it may exceed the time/troubleshooting limits of a lot of builders.  If you want to know what I mean, look at some of the old Dynaco assembly manuals for the preamps with phono.

3.  Cathode bias is no big deal, and certainly seems to be the way to go with push-pull, but our experiences with single ended amps vs. push-pull have not had us running to release a push-pull amp. 

[Paul Joppa]

...or am I all alone with my desire for a phono only one box (besides tt and speakers) system? ...

No, you're not alone. I've been planning a system like that for my vacation cabin, which is a sort of 1950's time-warp place. It will be monaural in keeping with that theme (and the fact that I have a single JBL C39 speaker cabinet!) I'm planning to make a one-channel SEX amp with a 6SL7 in the other socket, rigged as the classic RCA phono preamp - old RCA manuals show it this way before it was converted to 12AX7s. I already have the Rek-O-Kut turntable and Stanton 500 cartridge.  :^)

[Len]

...or am I all alone with my desire for a phono only one box (besides tt and speakers) system? ...

No, you're not alone. I've been planning a system like that for my vacation cabin, which is a sort of 1950's time-warp place. It will be monaural in keeping with that theme (and the fact that I have a single JBL C39 speaker cabinet!) I'm planning to make a one-channel SEX amp with a 6SL7 in the other socket, rigged as the classic RCA phono preamp - old RCA manuals show it this way before it was converted to 12AX7s. I already have the Rek-O-Kut turntable and Stanton 500 cartridge.  :^)

Now that is the coolest project that I've heard of in a long time. That should give you some great music and kick you back to your childhood at the same time.

[tubes/horns]

Thanks everyone for the input! Yes, that really does sound like a VERY cool project and should sound AWESOME with that speaker! My thing is,the older I get the harder it is to get up and down! Vinyl is worth the effort but couple that with having to connect and disconnect two two three extra boxes EVERY time you want to clean your system, (and if your anal like me that's at least once a week!) you start to wonder about simplifying your system! Let's not even get started on shopping for the right cables to allow your system to sing or the massive expense thereof. Add together the price of a Bottlehead phono stage a line stage (of which all of the inputs, bar one, would go unused by me) the amp and three sets of interconnects and you are talking about not a small amount of scratch! Some may say talk of divorce may not be out of the question! Then you search for Integrated tube gear online and a couple of Chinese companies keep popping up with magazines and customers alike calling them "product of the year" "Golden Ear Award" which by the way is hard to get, and  for $2800.00 you have the flagship model of their highly acclaimed, albeit Chinese piece of crap and best of all IT'S ONE BOX! I'm sorry, I can't force myself to believe the Chinese are the ONLY ones who can do it and have so many going ga-ga over it! In kit form, good point you had, The transformer would be no problem at least not as big as a lot of stuff I would never use but have to pay for, not to mention all of the unnecessary circuitry in the signal path. Although the Chinese crap still has all the stuff I don't need in it too! I look at it this way, for at least the last five years I have been drooling over Bottlehead gear, reading all of the great things about it from EVERYONE and I know they're not all wrong and I think, HEY! These guys make magic and music EVERY day, wouldn't I sooner turn to them for what I need and not the Chinese?  Who else would you guys recommend? I mean, who knows more about circuitry, signal paths component interactions and what not?  Steve Deckert has some interesting new ideas about push pull amps and their superior control over single driver speakers, especially on loud complex passages, things I noticed myself years ago. I don't know if it's the extra power ( probably not) or the affect of the feedback or the way pentodes handle the signal or a combination of the latter two (partly what I think) but on large orchestral stuff or hard rock your ears don't lie, more musical info escapes the speakers, ALWAYS a GOOD thing!  What do you Guys think?

[Paul Joppa]

I admire your obvious passion!

So far, Bottlehead only makes SET amps. Naturally we continue to explore other approaches, but we have not yet found any other topology or implementation that sounds as good to us. And we have no real desire to sell stuff we don't like ourselves.

As for integration, it's really beyond the reach of small companies. The hifi industry has always understood that flexibility is most easily achieved with a mix-and-match approach. At the moment, Bottlehead sells six electronic products - two amps, two line preamps, and two phono preamps. From them you can make 22 different combinations, for a total of 28 different products. There's no way Bottlehead could come close to offering or supporting that many products. Sony can do that, and they do.

[tubes/horns]

Thanks Paul, makes sense to me! Also I must say I haven't actually heard any Bottlehead equipment myself, so it's not fair for me to group it in with so many other SET companies offerings. Your equipment may go FAR beyond the typical polite, airy, great on subtle nuances but glossing over obvious macro-dynamic details which you KNOW to be in the recording as well as the speed lost from lack of control over the driver(s). Little things make music live sounding and on a good recording with beautiful (clean) Vinyl, and very good equipment you can still hear the stick impact the skin of the drum before the vibration of the skin and the decay of the previous note of the horn section in the hall WHILE the entire string and kettle drum sections are in crescendo ! GOD that's nice! I really have to listen to your gear and I know I'd LOVE putting it together too! Thank you very much for your help, and I would really get a kick out of hearing that system when you get it together with some old jazz monos? SWEEEET! Hey Paul what about a volume pot on the Eros? That would bring me down to two boxes and still sound great right? Thanks again and take care,   Chris

[Paul Birkeland]

Hey Paul what about a volume pot on the Eros? That would bring me down to two boxes and still sound great right? Thanks again and take care,   Chris

With very, very short cables and a passive preamp with 50k-100k input impedance, you might be able to get away with running the Eros into a passive control, but it's not super recommended.  On the Tube Phono we were able to add a third stage with volume controls preceeding, but it increases the build complexity and cost significantly.

[Paul Joppa]

Shoot - forgot to hit the "post" button again and lost my reply.

Just a note to say that the SEX amp, and the forthcoming Stereomour, are stereo amps with volume controls; just add a phono preamp for a two-box vinyl system.

Of course they are SETs, at 2 and 3.5 watts/channel respectively, so good macro-dynamics will require very efficient speakers. Always an issue with SETs I'm afraid.

[Dr. Toobz]

As nice as a "one box" system would be, especially one that put out more than 2W, I can personally vouch for the greatness of the S.E.X./Seduction combo. It's like hearing my records for the first time - tubes and grooves are a truly match made in heaven! I matched the wood on the two amps to that of my turntable plinth, and the resulting setup looks way cooler than any "all-in-one" amp could ever hope to. The upcoming Stereomour in tandem with an Eros phono preamp would be even better!

Don't let the low power of SET's scare you away, either. I'm currently having growing pains myself, trying to find speakers to fill my new (and much larger!) living room with sound on a measly 2W. It can be done - it just takes work, from what I'm discovering. What fun would this hobby be if the best sound was easily had by strolling down to the local Worst Buy and picking up a mega-watt sand amp and cheap box speakers?

[tubes/horns]

Dr Toobz, right you are, what fun would it be? I love being able to hear differences in equipment, cables,circuits and such, keeps the journey interesting! Thanks PJ and PB for all the input, it makes everything much easier to have knowledgeable people to run through some ideas with, plus it's fun to talk about gear! I do have two questions, HOW much more difficult and how much more expensive? Sometimes trade-offs can be good.  Thanks a lot, I feel I'm getting closer to where I'd like to be already!   Chris

[tubes/horns]

Oh! I forgot to mention, (I think) I'm building my own two mouth BLH's using Decware's  DFR8, (Steve's modified Fostex FE206E drivers) the speakers are the Sachiko design, basically the same as Cardersounds flagship speaker and Cain & Cain's  at 96 db and, if memory serves, 110? spl there shouldn't be too much that WON'T drive them. See, I told you I'm going for simple PR, though nothing bar a string, a 2x4 and an upside down wash tub could be as simple for making music as the system you're planning!    Thanks a  million guys, have fun today,  Chris

[Dr. Toobz]

Oh! I forgot to mention, (I think) I'm building my own two mouth BLH's using Decware's  DFR8, (Steve's modified Fostex FE206E drivers) the speakers are the Sachiko design, basically the same as Cardersounds flagship speaker and Cain & Cain's  at 96 db and, if memory serves, 110? spl there shouldn't be too much that WON'T drive them. See, I told you I'm going for simple PR, though nothing bar a string, a 2x4 and an upside down wash tub could be as simple for making music as the system you're planning!    Thanks a  million guys, have fun today,  Chris

That's funny, I was just looking at Decware's speakers/drivers myself. Unfortunately, I don't have the woodworking facilities (or skills) to put together an enclosure, so I may have to go with something pre-built, like the MG944. Let us know how these sound - Decware seems to have some good prices for speakers, even if I'm biased towards wanting to use Bottlehead amps.

[tubes/horns]

Yeah, Dr. toobz, he does have reasonably priced speakers! In search of a good back loaded horn design, I accidently stumbled into a DIY audio forum where they were waxing poetic about Decware modified Fostex FE206E drivers. I couldn't believe my luck! That's the exact driver I just ordered from Madisound! Long story longer, I made a call to Decware and my luck continued, Steve Deckert himself answered the phone! If you know how busy Steve is, it's akin to calling heaven and GOD answers!What a nice guy, he talked with me an hour and a half and it was worth every penny of long distance! He told me the cost and as soon as I got the 206's from Madisound, I sent them out to Steve! A couple weeks later they were at my house and they are beautiful, Check out his HDT's if your going the single driver route, that's what I'm going to get from him next, but I simply MUST complete my horns! The HDT's use the same driver so I have options and he also sells them in a KIT HOORAY!    See ya, Chris

[tubes/horns]

Oh, Dr. Toobz, forgot to mention Steve sells most allof his speakers completely built with 4 or 5 wood veneers to choose from the prices just LOOK like kit prices although kit form is an option he has for less of course!   Hope that helps, check his site closer he has white papers on his stuff and everything!   Chris