Tube amps and signal polarity

rlyach · 4461

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Offline rlyach

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on: September 04, 2014, 06:36:02 AM
Hi all, I have been scratching my head over this and thought I would ask the experts here. I have recently noticed that the Crack inverts the audio signal, and I was wondering what effect that has on the sound. The Stereomour doesn't invert the signal, and other amps I have built or worked on either have an even number of inverting stages or they flip the polarity of the output transformer to compensate.  The crack has a classic triode inverting amplifier stage at the input with a gain of about 14, and a cathode follower as the power stage. Since this is an OTL design, with no transformer to flip the polarity, the signal stays inverted. The output sounds great so I was wondering if polarity doesn't matter. Thanks.

Randy Yach


Offline Paul Birkeland

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Reply #1 on: September 04, 2014, 07:46:24 AM
There's kind of a funny workaround that you can try.

Convert your headphones to balanced operation with a 4 pin XLR, install a 4 pin XLR jack in the Crack and a switch to flip the phase by being able to drive the negative leads of the headphone drivers with Crack's hot signal.

-PB

Paul "PB" Birkeland

Bottlehead Grunt & The Repro Man


Offline Grainger49

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Reply #2 on: September 04, 2014, 09:53:04 AM
There we go.  A simple answer.  I only regret not having thought of it. 



Offline rlyach

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Reply #3 on: September 04, 2014, 10:25:10 AM
Paul,

Another solution is to use a pro-level matching transformer at the input (like a Lundahl LL1540) and switch the secondary polarity. This will work to flip the phase but it does not really answer my original question. Will flipping the phase change or improve the sound? I love my Crack but noticed the polarity issue only a few days ago, and was simply wondering if I should do something and if it would be worth while. Has anyone at BH ever looked at this before?

Also Edcore also has several 1:1 matching transformers but their frequency response is not as good as the Lundahl.

Randy Yach


Offline rlyach

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Reply #4 on: September 04, 2014, 11:50:47 AM
Sorry Grainger, I did see your post but I just assumed I was missing something. I have heard the difference in loudspeaker systems, but if it makes a difference, and having proper polarity is important, then it seems odd to me that the Crack did not take this into account. Therefore, I assumed I did not understand something. I guess I can run a test with an external matching transformer so I can flip the polarity. My headphones do not have an XLR connector so I don't really want to add an XLR output to my crack. Edcore makes a Dual unbalanced 150, 600, or 10K Ohms impedance to dual unbalanced 150, 600, or 10K Ohms impedance for ~$30. The Lundahl has better specs but it cost $150 for two of them.

Randy Yach


Offline Grainger49

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Reply #5 on: September 04, 2014, 12:59:50 PM
Up through the BeePre all Bottlehead preamps were inverting.  Of course the Submissive, passive, doesn't invert.  The Smash is a single pentode so I don't know if it inverts or not.

The problem with Crack is that it is a headphone amp and you can't just swap the speaker leads as I do with my amps. 



Offline rlyach

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Reply #6 on: September 04, 2014, 01:14:06 PM
Thanks Granger. I read on headfonia that polarity of headphone amps is very important. I attached the FAQ section. After reading this I really want to hear the difference. I want to test before I commit to any permanent changes. The XLR solution that PB suggested is the least expensive, however I will have to cut the plug off my Teslas and convert them to stereo XLR. The matching transformer solution leaves everything else unchanged, and allows other headphones to be used. The real problem with the input transformer solution is that there is not much room in the Crack for the extra matching transformers. I am now on a search for the most elegant solution to flip the polarity of the Crack and still allow all headphones to be used, not just my modified Tesla T1s. I wonder if anyone else has listened to the crack with positive polarity so I would know if this is worth pursuing.



from http://www.headfonia.com/faq/

20. How do I know if my headphones are wired with a reverse polarity?

First, a reversed polarity is not when you switch out the left and right channels (that’s reversed channels). A reversed polarity is when you wired the + and – incorrectly, like swapping the red and black wires on a speaker set up.

The most obvious effect of a reversed polarity wiring is on the soundstage image. Things that are supposed to play in the center of the soundstage image (that’s right in front of your forehead) instead is like split into two and now playing on the left and right edges of the soundstage image.

Do this for illustration purposes: take both of your hands and put it in front of your forehead. With a correct polarity (and a good heapdhone and a good recording), a certain singer or instrument would be projected there right in front of your forehead.

Now, spread your two hands apart to the left and right. This is how an incorrect polarity would sound. The instrument or the singer is no longer in the center, but rather split and is now playing on the left and right edge of the soundstage image.

Other effects of a reversed polarity may include a shift in the frequency balance. You may get more treble, less midrange and such. Of course this may be give the impression that the headphone is now better (i.e with more treble comes more apparent detail), but the fact is that the soundstage image is plain wrong.

The best recording to evaluate this phenomenon would be a good live recording. A one instrument live recording like live piano solos would be even better since you have no distraction from the other instruments.

Some headphones like the Grado HP1000 comes with the polarity switch (so you can reverse the signal at will) but I personally have never encountered a recording with an erroneous polarity so I don’t see what the need is for such switches (Although I don’t doubt its cool factor). Likewise some DACs like the Cambridge Dacmagic also comes with a polarity reverse button. If you happen to have the Dacmagic you can play around with the button to see the effect of a reversed polarity.


Randy Yach


Offline Paul Birkeland

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Reply #7 on: September 04, 2014, 01:49:38 PM
The most obvious effect of a reversed polarity wiring is on the soundstage image. Things that are supposed to play in the center of the soundstage image (that’s right in front of your forehead) instead is like split into two and now playing on the left and right edges of the soundstage image.

This is describing having one of the headphone cups wired the opposite of the other, like flipping speaker connections at one speaker.


Paul "PB" Birkeland

Bottlehead Grunt & The Repro Man


Offline rlyach

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Reply #8 on: September 04, 2014, 02:00:19 PM
Thanks Paul... I just figured that out. Since I am listening with a DAC I realized I could just invert the digital signal on my mac and do some simple experiments. First I loaded a few tunes including "Take Five," which has a lot of cymbals. Then I listened to it normal and inverted. I could not really hear any difference. Then I split the stereo track and inverted one side and heard exactly what was described. It was very strange. I went back and tried to hear any difference with a normal and inverted source and could not, even when I flipped the signal back and forth in mid stream. I heard the switch but no difference in the music. I guess as long as both speakers or headphone cups are in phase relative to each other, the sound is normal and centered, even if there is an inversion. If I try and explain it, it would be like putting a slight phase delay in both channels but keeping them aligned, there is no difference in the mix, just a slight timing difference. Therefore it really doesn't matter that the amp is inverting or not, just that both channels are the same. Sorry to put you all through this. Digital sources are great for doing these kinds of experiments. Bottom line is that I get to leave my Crack the way it is! :)

Randy Yach


Offline rlyach

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Reply #9 on: September 26, 2014, 01:20:41 PM
Update: I went looking for a way to flip the polarity without modifying my Crack, and I discovered Audirvana Plus! Audirvana Plus has a polarity switch built into the software. First, I have to say that Audirvana by itself sounded significantly better than iTunes streaming to my Audioengine D1 by itself. If I really pay attention, I can almost convince myself that the polarity switch is audible, but it is debatable. The best part of all this is discovering Audirvana. My Crack is in my office at work, using a macbook pro, Audirvana Plus, Audioengine D1, customized Crack, Beyerdynamic T1 600 ohm. Amazing. Thanks Bottlehead for introducing me to the world of Tubes!

Randy Yach