Ugh. So sorry, but I need someone's expert advice

adamct · 1722

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Offline adamct

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on: June 01, 2014, 12:42:55 PM
So....3 years ago we moved into our current house. It is in a semi-rural area and it is the first time either my wife or I have ever (a) owned a house, or (b) lived outside of a major city. My wife was nervous about living further outside of town, especially since I often work late. She wanted to have a monitored security system installed. I shopped around for quotes, found they were all too expensive for what they offered, and eventually got distracted by other matters. Her unease has persisted, and we find that we are often away from the house for a few days at a time, so I decided to bite the bullet and install a system (SimpliSafe -- much lower monthyl fees than what I was otherwise able to find). While I was at it, I also decided to do a security review of the house and decided that installing perimeter lights on timed switches that go on at dusk and off at dawn while we are away would be a large upgrade.

I purchased five of these and have nothing but good things to say about them. Unfortunately, they are one-way switches only, and I had a couple of places where I needed to replace three-way switches. One of these is a switch that controls the light just outside our back door, between the house and the garage. There is a switch just inside the back door, and another just inside the door to the garage. Between the garage and the house is a small breezeway with the light installed overhead.

Since I didn't have a 3-way switch, I removed the 3-way switch in the garage, twisted the black and white wires together with a wire nut and capped the red wire with another wire nut. This bypassed that switch. Inside the house, I removed the existing three-way switch, capped the red wire with a wire nut, and installed the new, one-way timer switch.  This worked perfectly. The timer switches have 3 wires out the back: black (line), blue (load) and white (neutral). I connected the black wire to the hot wire in the box, the blue to the black wire running between the house switch and the garage, and tied the white wire on the switch and the white wire from the garage to the bundle of white wires in the box. As I mentioned, the red wire was capped and unused.

Then I decided to buy a few of the 3-way versions of the same switch. See here. The manual is available here. As you can see, this switch has 4 wires: black (line), blue (load), white (neutral) and yellow (3-way). But for the life of me, I can't figure out how to wire it up and how to wire the 3-way switch in the garage. I've checked self-help books at home, and it seems that the Honeywell manual envisions a particular position for the light figure in the circuit. When I look at self-help books, it seems that there are at least 3 ways of wiring a 3-way switch: (A) fixture before the switches, (B) fixture after the switches, and (C) fixture between the switches. In any case, I can't translate either the diagrams in the self-help book or in the Honeywell manual to what I have in my setup.

I've tried replacing the switch in the garage with a 1-way switch and following the instructions in the Honeywell manual for a new 3-way installation, but that didn't work. And I can't figure out how to wire it up to follow the instructions for an existing 3-way installation, because that diagram assumes that there is a black and white wire pair running to the light fixture that is different from the black/white (and red) wire that runs between the two switches. I simply don't have that, on either switch. Moreover, it is clear that I don't NEED any extra wires, since I am able to run the light with a single-pole switch using just the black hot wire from the switch box, the black and white wire from the 3-wire wire between the switches, and the white neutral bundle in the switch box.

Here are a couple of different wiring setups that I've tried that have NOT worked:


SETUP #1:

Black hot wire from house --> Black wire on timer switch (Line) --> Black wire running between the two switches --> Common terminal on the 3-way switch in the garage
White neutral wire bundle from house --> White wire on timer switch (Neutral)
Blue wire on timer switch (Load) --> White wire running between the two switches --> Terminal A on the 3-way switch in the garage
Yellow wire on timer switch (3-way) --> Red wire running between the two switches --> Terminal B on the 3-way switch in the garage

Result: light doesn't go on nomatter what switch constellation I try between garage and house. If the switch in the garage is "on", and the timer switch in the house is "on", then the timer switch keeps clicking on an off by itself (light does not switch on and off).

SETUP #2:

Black hot wire form house --> Black wire on timer switch (Line)
White neutral wire bundle from house --> White wire on timer switch (Neutral) --> White wire running between the two switches --> Common terminal on the 3-way switch in the garage
Blue wire on timer switch (Load) --> Black wire running between the two switches -->Terminal A on the 3-way switch in the garage
Yellow wire on timer switch (3-way) --> Red wire running between the two switches --> Terminal B on the 3-way in the garage

Result: if garage switch is in Position 1, I can turn the light on and off from the timer switch as usual. If the garage switch is in Position 2 and the timer switch is off, the light is off. If the garage switch is in Position 2 and the timer switch is on,  then the timer switch keeps clicking on an off by itself (light does not switch on and off).

SETUP #3:

Black hot wire from house --> Black wire on timer switch (Line) --> Black wire running between the two switches --> Terminal A on the 3-way switch in the garage
White neutral wire bundle from house --> White wire on timer switch (Neutral)
Blue wire from timer switch (Load) --> White wire running between the two switches --> Common terminal on the 3-way switch in the garage
Yellow wire on timer switch (3-way) --> Red wire running between the two switches --> Terminal B on the 3-way switch in the garage

Result: Nothing. The timer switch display is on and lights up, but neither switch has any apparent effect whatsoever.

SETUP #4:

Black hot wire from house --> Black wire on timer switch (Line)
White neutral wire bundle from house --> White wire on timer switch (Neutral) --> White wire running between the switches --> White neutral wire bundle in the garage
Blue wire on timer switch (Load) --> Red wire running between the switches --> Pole 1 on a ONE-WAY SWITCH in the garage
Yellow wire on timer switch (3-way) --> Black wire running between the switches --> Pole 2 on a ONE-WAY SWITCH in the garage

Result: If both the switch in garage and the timer switch are "on", then the light goes on. Any other combo, the light is off (i.e., neither switch is capable of controlling the light independently -- they need to work together).

I've tried this and about 20 other wiring scenarios, but I can't get anything to work. Any ideas?

Best regards,
Adam



Offline Doc B.

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Reply #1 on: June 01, 2014, 01:54:50 PM
Having lived in a semi-rural area for the past 27 years my advice is just get a big dog. Bad guys usually move on to the house without the dog. When we had 140 lb. Fritzie we would leave him tied up to a tree outside and people were scared to even drive up the street. He even chased away a black bear once. Nowadays his 70 lb. replacement Jet seems to intimidate people just fine. If anyone comes to the door at night he sounds like he will send them home with only half their fingers and one testicle.

Dan "Doc B." Schmalle
President For Life
Bottlehead Corp.


Offline adamct

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Reply #2 on: June 01, 2014, 02:25:02 PM
Frankly, we would love to have a dog, but we travel a fair amount (including internationally -- my wife and I have family in Germany and Italy), and it (a) wouldn't be practical to take a dog with us, and (b) we wouldn't want to put a dog in a kennel and don't have anyone we would trust to take care of the dog. So...alarm system and lights. Assuming I can figure this out, at least...

Best regards,
Adam



Offline adamct

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Reply #3 on: June 01, 2014, 02:29:59 PM
Also, I don't know if this is helpful or not, but the Honeywell manual shows a jumper being used on the conventional 3-way switch when wired in an existing 3-way installation. I haven't tried a jumper in the scenarios above, because I can't figure out how it translates to my situation. As far as I can tell, in the Honeywell diagram, the jumper is used to ensure there is always power back to the switch, which isn't a problem I have in any of my attempts so far. Still, I thought I would mention it in case it helps with the troubleshooting.



Offline adamct

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Reply #4 on: June 01, 2014, 03:07:45 PM
I took another look at the Honeywell diagram for an existing installation. They show the blue wire connecting to the black load wire on the light figure, which then exits the fixture as a white wire tying into the common neutral. So I tried the following setup (starting from the house on the left and going to the garage on the right):

Black hot from house: Not used.
White neutral bundle from house --> White wire on timer switch (Neutral)
Black wire on timer switch (Line) --> Black wire between the two switches --> Terminal B on conventional 3-way switch in Garage --> with jumper to Common terminal on conventional 3-way switch in garage --> Black hot wire from Garage switch box
Blue wire on timer switch (Load) --> White wire between the two switches --> White neutral bundle in garage switch box
Yellow wire on timer switch (3-way) --> Red wire between the two switches --> Terminal A on conventional 3-way switch in Garage

Lastly, as indicated above, I connected the hot black wire from the garage to the Common terminal on the conventional 3-way switch in the garage.

Result: Nothing. Timer switch display doesn't even light up, neither switch does anything, light doesn't go on.

Note that this is an odd result. For the display on the timer switch to go on, I think you only need to connect the black (line) wire on the switch to a hot wire, and the white (neutral) wire on the switch to a neutral bundle. I connected the white wire on the switch directly to the white neutral bundle in the house, and the black wire on the switch should be connected to the hot AC wire from the garage, no-matter what position that switch is in. The hot wire from the garage goes into the common terminal. If the garage switch is set to connect to terminal B, then the black wire on the switch is directly connected to the black wire on the common terminal. If the garage switch is set to connect to terminal A, then the jumper between Terminal B and the common terminal should ensure that the switch still receives power.

What gives? I am thoroughly mystified and frustrated....



Offline RPMac

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Reply #5 on: June 02, 2014, 05:06:42 AM
I use motion detecter light on each corner of my house.
They have a photocell to turn them on at dark and off at morning.
They have a "dusk" setting that reduces the output until something activates the motion sensor.
I have them all wired on the same circuit to a switch in my bedroom. I can cut the switch off and then back on and they all will stay on until I cycle the switch again or they will reset themselves with a day/night cycle.

I also have some inside lamps on timers that come on everyday at 6:00 pm and off at 12:00 pm.

Even when you are not at home, these lights coming on and off make it look like someone is there.

I also have dogs with a self feeder.