Converted my 300B Paramounts to 2A3

xcortes · 12717

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Offline xcortes

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on: March 25, 2010, 07:36:28 PM
Replaced the stock EH 300B with NOS RCA 2A3s. The change is impressive. The sound is now noticeably more relaxed and natural. Maybe even more detailed. The sound is better textured and even the timbre seems to have improved. I like it a lot. I could listen to this for days.

I'm still using the stock EH 12AT7 drivers.


Xavier Cortes


Offline Paully

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Reply #1 on: March 26, 2010, 04:18:45 AM
I enjoyed it when I switched to from 300B to 2a3.  A great deal actually.  I liked the RCA (old stock black plates), but enjoyed the Shugang 2a3c even more.  You might not, but they are cheap enough compared to the price of the amp so it might be worth trying.

I decided, just for fun, to switch back to 300B and I can honestly say the difference between the Shuguang 300B and Shuguang 2a3c was minimal.  So I haven't felt the need to switch back again.  I think the amplifier is so good that when you put in good output tubes, 2a3c or otherwise, it is just going to shine.  Choose your tube based on your power needs but the nice thing about the 2a3 is the tube rolling options.  Old stock really aren't an option with 300B, at least not for me.

I did switch from EH 12at7 to Mullard.  That is most definitely worth doing.



Offline xcortes

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Reply #2 on: March 26, 2010, 05:48:36 AM
Good to know about the Mullards 'cause I have them already. I'll put them in once I put some hours on te new configuration to really 

I'm triamping so I need six tubes of each.

Xavier Cortes


Offline Rick58

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Reply #3 on: April 01, 2010, 06:25:34 PM
May not be your cup of tea, but some Siemens & Halske NOS ECC81s seemed to increase resolution, and sound a little 'crisper' (but not too much). I needed a little spice when I put in a tube preamp (not a Bottlehead ...).

Paramount 300Bs (Sophia Princess mesh plates, Siemens & Halske NOS 12AT7s, V-Cap coupling and Mundorf Silver/Oil parafeed cap upgrades, nice!)


Offline Steve_in_NV

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Reply #4 on: April 10, 2010, 08:28:10 AM
Maybe even more detailed.
When I purchased my Paramounts I opted for both 300B and 2A3 tubes, I configured the amps for 300B's after awhile I upgraded the tubes and caps. I  have been extremely pleased with everything, but like everyone else I must try something different.  Using the simple 5 step process outlined on the forum I installed the 2A3's (Sovtek).  I have to admit I'm not great at writing reviews or putting my experiences down on paper.  If I had to sum up the 2A3 experience in one word that word would be "detail". My speakers are Polk and have 90% efficiency, the 2A3's have no problem driving them, I actually think there is more "punch" for lack of a better word.  All I can say is if your on the edge of trying the 2A3 setup, do it, for me it is great and I'm leaving the 2A3's in service.



Offline Rick58

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Reply #5 on: April 18, 2010, 08:48:50 PM
Dang, now I may have to get some 2A3s ... I sold off mine (had bought both with my kit) when I found out about the possible 'popping' upon turn on and the higher temperature operation. I still have the kit parts to do the swap ... but likely will also have to get another PF cap (I use a relatively low-temp rated Mundorf Silver/Oil cap in there now. Works fine with the 300Bs, but I would be concerned with more heat ...).

I will certainly wait until the soft-start mod comes out tho ... then I may have to break down and try a Mullard in the driver position. I should in any case, just to see what it sounds like with a more 'warm' tube in there.

The fun never stops!  :^)
« Last Edit: April 18, 2010, 08:52:40 PM by Rick58 »

Paramount 300Bs (Sophia Princess mesh plates, Siemens & Halske NOS 12AT7s, V-Cap coupling and Mundorf Silver/Oil parafeed cap upgrades, nice!)


Offline Steve_in_NV

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Reply #6 on: April 19, 2010, 09:16:38 AM
Dang, now I may have to get some 2A3s ...
Rick, I'm not sure of the "popping" or higher temperature all I can say is it's all good.  I ordered a different set of 2A3's because I can't leave anything alone, so if you are interested in trying the 2A3 tubes and if you pay shipping both directions I will send you mine for a trial listining experience.  Also before I started to convert mine I was missing two HLMP 6000 led's so I ordered a few more, check to see if you have those and if not and you still want to try the tubes I will send you a couple.  That's all the components you need.  I also see you have Sophia 300B's those are the tubes I removed from my system, and they are great tubes, I think, the only reason I changed was because I was looking for something to do.  And I'm glad I did.



Offline Paully

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Reply #7 on: April 19, 2010, 09:41:39 AM
You guys are going to make me neurotic.  By the time this thread is done I am going to have to convert my Paramounts back to 2a3.



Offline Grainger49

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Reply #8 on: April 19, 2010, 10:02:25 AM
I'm not going to say anything....

Say, what did we build the Paramounts as anyway?  Wasn't it 300B?



Offline xcortes

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Reply #9 on: April 19, 2010, 03:20:09 PM
Regarding the pop: I have them but is a slight pop that doesn't bother me at all. Are my tubes in danger?

Xavier Cortes


Offline Paul Joppa

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Reply #10 on: April 19, 2010, 06:22:10 PM
This post is kind of long because I want to post what I know at this point about this problem and what we are doing about it.

For the stock Paramount in 2A3 configuration (direct coupled), we have seen no problems with old stock 2A3s, or with the supplied Sovtek tubes. A few modern-production tubes have shown a visible and/or audible arc and "pop" through the speakers; this has been known since the ParaGlow days (predecessor to the 2A3 Paramount) and the usual solution was to implement a standby switch on the high voltage supply - or use a tube that does not have the problem. This is, incidentally, why the Paramount power supply circuit board has a place for that high-voltage switch - it's not mentioned in the manual where a jumper closes the circuit, but the jumper is in the circuit at a place where a normal 240vAC switch can be safely used to switch on the high voltage.

More recently we (well, actually a customer) found a severe problem with the EML 2A3 - the cathode emission is destroyed in a few startup cycles. Apparently it can be restored with an extended burn-in but nobody knows how much ultimate lifetime may have been lost. Jac at EML figured out a lot of this - credit to him for that work! This is so severe a problem that we have been working much harder on the "soft-start" board to see if we can make these highly-regarded tubes work with this circuit.

The issue, as far as I understand it, happens as the tubes and power supply start up. The direct-coupled 2A3 grid is at high voltage as the power supply ramps up (fairly quickly) and before the 2A3 filament comes up to temperature. I can speculate all day, but it's hard to prove exactly what happens next; I'll just say that the 2A3 cathode is not protected until it emits enough to form an electron cloud around itself. Sometime during that unprotected period there is an arc with some tubes. It probably depends on exactly how the active cathode surface is built, and on the speed with which it starts emitting. In any case, some tubes are tough with respect to this abuse, and some are intolerant of it.

Our approach right now is to delay the current source feeding the driver plate. That alone is not enough, the leakage current before the C4S stabilizes still causes a tiny "pop". We've added a resistor bypass from driver plate to ground (330K is the current value) which holds the 2A3 grid very close to ground until the 2A3 warms up - actually the delay is long enough that the driver also warms up. Then the driver high voltage ramps up slowly to its stable value.

(In the course of this work, I found that the driver plate voltage could vary a lot with different tubes, which can play havoc with the 2A3 operating point, power, and distortion. Making the driver plate voltage adjustable would not only solve that problem, it would also make it easier to swap in different tubes. Therefor this feature was added to the board - I am now at version 4.4 of the board design.  :^)  We tried a servo bias design but it did not sound quite as good as a fixed bias voltage, so there will be a trimpot on the new board to adjust the driver plate voltage to the optimum value.)

To fit all these functions in, without adding a whole new logic board, relays, and power supply, some compromises must be made. The biggest one is that, once the amp is turned off, it must remain off for about 30 minutes before it is turned on again, or else the delay time will be reduced and produce arcing again.

I am certain this will reduce and in most cases eliminate the "pop". I am not yet certain that the EMLs will be free from damage, though I think we have addressed the main cause of it. A proper test would take a very long time, since it would have to run the tubes until they died, switching on and off every hour or so. But with old-stock and the supplied Sovteks, I already like this slow start, it's almost spooky how smoothly the music blooms after 10-20 seconds, out of a totally silent background. For my own personal Paramounts, I'll probably convert them to 12AU7 or 6SN7 drivers to reduce the gain once we are done experimenting on them.

Paul Joppa


Offline xcortes

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Reply #11 on: April 20, 2010, 02:25:21 PM
Quote
For the stock Paramount in 2A3 configuration (direct coupled), we have seen no problems with old stock 2A3s

Hmmm. I'm using old stock 1950's RCA 2A3 gray plates and I'm having the problem. Again. Not a loud or bothersome pop but still there.

Quote
This is, incidentally, why the Paramount power supply circuit board has a place for that high-voltage switch - it's not mentioned in the manual where a jumper closes the circuit, but the jumper is in the circuit at a place where a normal 240vAC switch can be safely used to switch on the high voltage.

I guess that's what I will try. Can you provide me with more info? Thanks!

EDIT:

From the old forum:
Quote
You can wire in a B+ switch in between the voltage doubler of the power supply where the B+ is only about 200V or so. There is a small jumper wire that you would have originally installed on the power supply board. Remove that and replace it with a switch that is rated for 240VAC and a few amps.

Just to clarify - Power board is the Board with the four caps.
On this PWR board, the one and only jumper is about 3/8 inch ? Is that the jumper you are talking about?

Yes that's the one. You can reference it at the bottom of page 20 in the manual. It shows a 1" length of buss wire added to 2 adjacent holes on the edge of the power supply PCBA. Just remove it from the top side and replace with a switch. Just use some left over TTP wire to hook up to it.

Yes, that's it. Bottom picture on page 20 of the manual shows the jumper being installed. The reason for the jumper is to allow a switch to be used; we are looking into doing a delay-relay board as an add-on eventually.
I recommend a switch rated for 8 amps or more at 240vAC. This will handle the initial inrush current while the caps are charging up.


« Last Edit: April 20, 2010, 04:47:49 PM by xcortes »

Xavier Cortes