Another Crack hum

diynewbie · 2702

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Offline diynewbie

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on: November 19, 2015, 04:57:12 AM
Finished build of Crack and all was well for first 8-10 hours, but a hum has appeared in the right channel only.  Volume level, presence or absence of input device or switching input leads does not alter the level or channel of the hum.  It takes about 4 minutes after power up for the hum to appear.  Tapping on the small tube with a pencil has little to no effect.  Tapping on the large tube causes a slight decrease in the level of the hum before it quickly returns to the previous level.  In addition, the tapping can be heard through the headphones.  Tapping on the transformer bell will cause the hum level to decrease slightly and quickly return, but the tapping is not audible through the headphones.  Similarly, the same results seem to occur when tapping the middle side top plate, but perhaps to a lesser extent.  Rechecked the resistances and voltages obtaining the following values (my values):

1 *         (28k & rising)
2 *         (64k & rising)
3 0         (0.1)
4 *         (61k & rising)
5 *         (85k & rising)
6 2.4k    (0.1 - ground mod on phono jack, 2.49k before mod)
7 2.9k    (3.01k)
8 0         (0.1)
9 2.9k    (2.95k)
10 2.4k  (0.1 - ground mod on phono jack, 2.49k before mod)
12 0       (0.1)
13 270k (270k and slowly rising - took about 8min)
14 0       (0.1)
20 0       (0.1)
22 0       (0.3)

B3 2.9k   (3.01k)
B6 2.9k   (2.95k)

RCA grnd 0    (0.2 L, 0.2 R)
RCA pin 90k  (95.2 L, 96.8 R)

Voltage
1 70-90  (86.4)
2 170      (176.5)
3 0          (0)
4 170      (176.4)
5 70-90  (83.4)
6 0          (0)
7 100      (111)
8 0          (0.001)
9 100      (107)
10 0        (0)
11 0       (0.001)
12 0       (0)
13 170   (176.6)
14 0       (0)
15 185   (198.2)
20 0       (0)
21 206   (219.2)
A1 90    (83.1)
A2 0      (0.001)
A4 0      (0)
A5 0      (0)
A6 90    (85.8)
A7 0      (0)
A9 0      (0)
B1 90    (85.7)
B2 170  (176.1)
B3 100  (111.5)
B4 90    (83.0)
B5 170  (176.0)
B6 100  (107)
B7  0     (0)
B8 0      (0)

Checked AC after DC test:  IEC N-L 122.8, Transformer T1-T2 122.8, T4-T5 6.00; T7-T8 168.4, T9-T10 168.4

Ground mod on phono jack was done before I started listening.  Resistance & DC values are similar to first test.

Also tested several ground points from IEC ground lug to:  top plate (far end of chassis); T3; Pot grnds; RCA grnds; phono grnds; T12, T14, T20, 9-pin socket center, 4 & 5; 8-pin socket 8, T8, T11, T16 and T17 all were 0.1.




Offline Doc B.

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Reply #1 on: November 19, 2015, 06:14:15 AM
Very nice and thorough testing and report! Sounds like a microphonic 6080. Try letting it run for an additional 50 or so hours (doesn't need signal for this kind of run in, just needs to be hot) and see if the tube settles in and hum goes away. If not, let us know.

Dan "Doc B." Schmalle
President For Life
Bottlehead Corp.


Offline diynewbie

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Reply #2 on: November 19, 2015, 07:58:47 AM
Thanks for the prompt reply,  will give it a try and report back later.

Very nice and thorough testing and report!

Well when you know just enough to be dangerous, I figured it would be best to throw as much info as possible at the forum.  My hope was that it would reduce trouble shooting exchanges.  Besides, just because I felt a test value was acceptable doesn't necessarily make it so.



Offline i luvmusic 2

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Reply #3 on: November 19, 2015, 12:34:44 PM
(doesn't need signal for this kind of run in, just needs to be hot)


 Can i do this run in by wiring just the heater?I will be using one of my modified Desktop PS with voltage regulator  instead of running the amp to do this burn in.THANKS!



Offline Doc B.

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Reply #4 on: November 19, 2015, 12:45:09 PM
No, you need to run current through the plate too. Run it in the amp.

Dan "Doc B." Schmalle
President For Life
Bottlehead Corp.


Offline i luvmusic 2

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Reply #5 on: November 19, 2015, 12:49:46 PM
OK THANK YOU!



Offline diynewbie

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Reply #6 on: November 22, 2015, 09:36:28 AM
I had 40+ hours of burn in when there was a power outage.  After a complete cool down and return of power I let it go another 24 hours.

The hum is still present, difficult to tell if its level has lessened, but the microphonic behavior is definitely worse.  Tapping almost anywhere will cause the level to increase and oscillate (ring?) till it returns to normal.  It remains only in the right channel.

Out of curiosity, I tried to measure the hum frequency and am pretty sure it is 120hz.  I would think this would rule out the heater circuit and combine that with it being only in a single channel it should also rule out B+ (i.e. transformer thru T13) as well?  Is it safe to say it is a tube issue and not circuit/build issue?



Offline malloy

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Reply #7 on: November 22, 2015, 11:57:48 AM
This sounds exactly like my own hum problem (see the thread on high pitched whine). You can try a different tube. Good to have spares for troubleshooting and sound tweaking.

Paul S.


Online Paul Birkeland

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Reply #8 on: November 23, 2015, 12:40:47 PM
One thing that seems really unimportant but might be worth a shot is to tighten up all the screws on the amplifier.

A loose screw in some places can induce hum.

Tapping on the 6080 and hearing a change in the hum would seem to suggest a flaky solder joint on the octal socket, or potentially on the other end of a wire connected to the octal socket.

Tapping on the transformer cover and hearing a different might suggest loose hardware.

-PB

Paul "PB" Birkeland

Bottlehead Grunt & The Repro Man


Offline diynewbie

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Reply #9 on: November 24, 2015, 06:44:19 AM
Thanks for the reply Paul.  Loose screws (besides mine) occurred to me too.  In fact, after the unit cooled down during the power outage I pulled the plugs and retightened all the screws.  (I painted the chassis and bell cap with USA hardware paint.  This paint seems to reach final cure slowly or is naturally soft.  Anyway, the screw heads appeared to be slowly deforming the paint i.e. pushing the paint out from underneath the screw heads.)

I had not checked the sound before the power outage, but after an additional 24 hours, the net result was that the hum hadn’t changed or was possibly lower in level.  What had changed was that tapping most anywhere including the small tube (oddly, an exception is the bell cap) has made the ringing more evident.  By that I mean the after the tap the loudness of the hum increases and then oscillates till it returns back to a quieter steady hum.

Excuse my ignorance, but my thoughts were that tightening the screws could have improved transmission of vibrations to either a bad tube or a bad solder joint.  I figured that conduction at a bad joint might temporarily improve with the vibration, but I couldn’t convince myself that a faulty tube might also show the similar behavior – perhaps a faulty connection in the tube or small changes in the plate/grid/cathode distances (i.e. one of those components vibrates).

I also hear popping sounds (not with headphones on) when the tubes heat up and cool down, so I would guess that something is changing shape during the warming/cooling process.  I assume that this is not unusual.

If this is sounds reasonable, I will give the tubes additional burn in time.  If nothing changes I will re-wet the 1, 2, 3 and 5 pins on the octal socket, terminals 1, 2, & 3; on the nine pin socket the center pin and pins 3, 6, 7 and 8; also clean the tube pins.  Yes, I know it would be quicker to just re-wet everything, but a part me wants to try and narrow done where I might have goofed.  Unfortunately, I do not have any other tubes to do the easy test.  I’m also not sure when I will get some and the hum level is tolerable in most cases.  I realize that right channel extends further back and forward than I am checking, but I kind of want to see if any changes occur first before extending the search.

I do want to sort things out and adapt to the sound before doing a speedball upgrade.  So, unless there are any other thoughts to consider, I’ll report back in a week or two.  Sorry for the long post.



Online Paul Birkeland

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Reply #10 on: November 26, 2015, 05:36:00 AM
Some screws in the Crack are responsible for maintaining ground connections to the chassis.  If you've painted the bottom of the chassis plate, this could cause similar problems.

It would seem that you should go back over the solder joints in the kit.

-PB

Paul "PB" Birkeland

Bottlehead Grunt & The Repro Man


Offline diynewbie

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Reply #11 on: December 04, 2015, 10:38:03 AM
Thanks for additional comments Paul.  No, I didn't paint the underside of the chassis.  When I mentioned the pins, I was revering to the solder connections.  I had done a visible check on all solder joints earlier, but that only reveals anything I missed or a really bad solder job (not that mine are all that great).

Anyway, cleaning the tube pins and additional burn-in had no effect.  But, I was able to find someone to loan me a replacement for the 6080 tube before tackling the solder connections.  The microphonic behavior and hum in the right channel have disappeared with the replacement tube.