Grid Stopper Values

machinehead · 25063

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Offline machinehead

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on: March 22, 2010, 07:36:00 AM
Gents, I am at work, and wanted to order some grid stopper resistors, but don't have the value,
can anyone oblige?



Offline Grainger49

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Reply #1 on: March 22, 2010, 07:55:40 AM
Typically they are 220 ohm carbon composition.



Offline machinehead

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Reply #2 on: March 22, 2010, 09:43:47 AM
Thanks Grainger!



Offline TheSparkle

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Reply #3 on: March 22, 2010, 01:15:52 PM
When I was installing the PJCCS I broke one of the 220 ohm carbon comp grid stoppers.  I got a carbon film 200 ohm at Radio Shack to replace.  It's fine, but I don't know if there is any benefit to a carbon comp over a film as grid stopper.  I'm sure there are some opinions. ;)



Offline Grainger49

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Reply #4 on: March 22, 2010, 02:47:35 PM
PJ prefers the carbon composition.  It is there to prevent oscillation.  The spiral cut of a carbon film can have an inductive effect.  If the amp isn't oscillating, and you have to check on a scope, then you are ok.



Offline JC

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Reply #5 on: March 22, 2010, 04:35:11 PM
At the input to the tube (grid), the value is not terribly critical. I have used 10 kOhm as grid-stoppers on preamps, for instance, and it really doesn't effect the signal much because there is theoretically zero current flowing through it.  In reality, there may be a tiny amount of current, but this is usually so small as to be negligible.

Do an internet search on "grid leak bias" to see how a tiny amount of grid current has been used in past designs.

The purpose of the grid-stopper is usually to damp any tiny oscillations which may occur due to the small amount of inter-electrode capacitance between the grid and another tube element.  As a general rule, this is more critical in RF applications, but it is certainly not limited to them.  In an audio circuit, such oscillations may do as little as contributing a "harshness" to the sound; in extreme cases, such an oscillation may end up being amplified by subsequent stages to the point of radiating in inconvenient ways or even causing "phantom" problems such as over-heating.

Of course, the only way to potentially "see" if that is  happening is with a fast oscilloscope and some luck; just the act of attaching the scope probe at a certain point may disrupt an oscillation, making it a difficult critter to spot.

Conventional wisdom suggests that a resistance right at the grid can minimize the possibility of an oscillation being set up in the first place.  The grid, of course, is inside the tube where we can't get at it, so we do the next best thing by attaching a resistance as close to tube-socket connection for the grid as we can.  Because even a straight wire has some miniscule amount of inductance which might encourage the oscillation rather than damp it, it is usually recommended that the resistor be attached with as little lead between the socket and the body of the resistor as practical.

As far as the construction of the resistor is concerned, film-type resistors are usually made by etching away some resistive film until the desired value is achieved.  As a rule, this ends up leaving a little spiral pattern of resistive film like a little coil, which may become a tiny inductance in its own right.

So conventional wisdom, again, says that a plain old carbon-comp resistor has less of a chance of being inductive than a film type, a wire-wound, etc.  Certainly the carbon comp is readily available and cheap.

Now, the caveat:  In any given instance, none of this may matter at all.  Your circuit may not be oscillating, if it is it may not be causing any particular undesirable effects, or one tube might oscillate while another doesn't.  Or, maybe a dirty tube pin or socket is enough of a grid-stopper, or maybe it's not.

The idea of including a grid-stopper is that it is cheap insurance.  An extra carbon-comp is pennies against chasing a phantom oscillation, so it is a good design ideal to include it even if the chance that an oscillation will occur is slim.

And, yes, Virginia, any old resistor you happen to have lying around may serve the purpose.  In this case, the odds are in favor of the least inductance you can introduce, so you look for something as inductance-free as possible.

There are a few choices, but, again the carbon comp is readily available and inexpensive.  And, in this application the effect on the sound is pretty negligible no matter what you use, so that's not much of an issue.

So, if you're selling a kit, and the goal is to pick the better part for an intended purpose, when you find the one that meets your technical criteria AND it happens to be inexpensive and readily available, you've got your part!  Especially when there isn't another type that is "better" in any objective or subjective way.


Jim C.


Offline JC

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Reply #6 on: March 22, 2010, 06:19:17 PM
Oh, and Grainger, just so you know:  I was interrupted several times while I was typing that out, so I hadn't even seen that you had posted again before I posted!

Jim C.


Offline Grainger49

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Reply #7 on: March 23, 2010, 03:38:14 AM
JC,

Great explanation.  I learned a few things from it.  I never got to study tubes.  I was told, "If a company is designing with tubes you don't want to work for it!"  I already knew the guy who said that was an idiot but I held my tongue on that.  I had already fallen in love with the sound of tubed electronics and had some at home.

Somewhere I have PJ's post on what type of resistor Bottlehead uses where and why.  I should get it into the Tech Topics.



Offline machinehead

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Reply #8 on: March 23, 2010, 03:49:23 AM
Hi JC, nice post!

If the resistor is inline with the grid, is the audio signal not flowing through it?

If so, it would seem that the quality of this resistor would have a great effect on the sound.



Offline Grainger49

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Reply #9 on: March 23, 2010, 04:30:06 AM
There have been some heated discussions about that.  The grid charges, as it is turned on, through the CC resistor.  The Grid "floats" higher and lower by the input voltage through it.  But the grid current is not the audio signal, so it isn't "considered" to be in the audio signal path.  

That is horribly confusing, but true.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2010, 09:57:03 AM by Grainger49 »



Offline machinehead

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Reply #10 on: March 23, 2010, 09:54:47 AM
I won't try to understand it, because, it sure seems that it would not have any choice to flow through the resistor.



Offline Paul Joppa

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Reply #11 on: March 23, 2010, 11:00:40 AM
The notion of the "signal path" is not widely understood. I think this is at the root of very many arguments and confusions. To my mind, what counts are components whose imperfections can affect the signal, be they imperfect with respect to the signal current through them or to the signal voltage across them. The visual evidence of lines on a circuit diagram can be deceptive.

For example, let's consider resistors. When resistors have problems, they are usually either noise (associated with current through the resistor) or nonlinearity (associated with voltage across the resistor). Now a grid stopper is clearly visible in the signal path on a circuit diagram. But how much can its imperfections affect the sound? The signal current that flows into the grid of a tube does indeed flow through the grid stopper resistor. However, that current is extremely tiny - it's just enough to charge the capacitance of the grid. For a typical 2A3 or 300B, that capacitance is about 70pF, which in the midrange (say, 1000Hz) is an impedance of 2,300,000 ohms. The current at 50vRMS signal (enough to initiate clipping) is about 0.00002 amps AC, and zero DC. For a 220 ohm grid stopper, the voltage drop is 0.005 volts.

By comparison, consider a plate load resistor in a driver circuit. This resistor is often thought to be not in the signal path since it goes to the power supply, not to the next stage. This resistor may have a value of 25,000 ohms and run 10mA through the resistor (reasonable values for a 6SN7 driver). The voltage across the resistor is 250vDC plus 50vAC - some 50,000 times greater than the grid stopper. The current is 10mADC plus 0.002mAAC, some 500,000 times greater than the grid stopper.

In this case, I conclude that you can expect the plate load resistor ("not in the signal path") to be 50,000 to 500,000 times more important to the sound than the grid stopper ("in the signal path").

Paul Joppa


Offline JC

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Reply #12 on: March 23, 2010, 12:17:52 PM
I tried to post on this earlier to no avail, but, having said that, I must say that my experiences tend to reinforce what Paul has said.  While I would have to say that any part through which the signal must pass in order to get from point A to point B is clearly in the signal path, I have never known a grid-stopper to have any audible effect no matter what its composition.

Perhaps this is indeed dependent on the current through it and the Voltage across it, and that seems intuitively likely; not so many electrons banging around inside the part.  I have no reason to believe otherwise, and I have certainly used "whatever is at hand" for grid-stopper duty when I suspected a circuit might be oscillating.  I just have never been able to hear the slightest difference between types.

As a rule, I prefer metal-film types for the signal path because they're clean, quiet, and tend not to drift much.  I would never use anything else in the cathode circuit of a tube Voltage amplifier, providing that one can be found to meet the other requirements of the circuit.

But, in grid-stopper service, I have never run into any difference in performance between types, so that means back to playing the odds.  And, the odds say a carbon-comp is the choice, without having to go to something exotic to minimize the chance of inductance.  
« Last Edit: March 23, 2010, 01:13:26 PM by JC »

Jim C.


Offline TheSparkle

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Reply #13 on: April 02, 2010, 09:46:35 AM
PJ prefers the carbon composition.  It is there to prevent oscillation.  The spiral cut of a carbon film can have an inductive effect.  If the amp isn't oscillating, and you have to check on a scope, then you are ok.

I couldn't wait for a replacement so I went to Radio Shack. :)