Kaiju Monoblocks.. PSE or Push-Pull?

richp4003 · 4807

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Offline richp4003

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on: March 14, 2018, 09:59:18 AM
Just started the quest for something different (have some luxman 3045 monoblocks right now, KT88 running in triode)..

When the Kaijus are wired as monoblocks, is it a PSE setup or a push-pull? Im kind of new to this, but as a mono block, is there any concerns about running 2 OPTs vs one larger one as other 300B setups might have?



Offline Paul Joppa

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Reply #1 on: March 14, 2018, 12:45:27 PM
It's a slightly special arrangement, closest to PSE (parallel single-ended) in terms of how it sounds. We usually call it "bridged" which is not precise but helps make it clear this is not the usual PSE connection. You could think of it as tubes in parallel but transformers in series.

The problem with simply paralleling triodes is that the tube internal resistance is much smaller than the load resistance. So any difference between the tubes causes difference-signal current through the other tube. Sometimes this is called "current hogging." We, and many others, have noticed some degradation of sound quality with PSE amps.

My solution is to run the individual amps with the same input (so they are in phase with each other), but wire the secondaries of the transformers in series. This greatly reduces the interaction between the tubes, while leaving intact the single-ended harmonic structure. It doubles the design speaker impedance, so I designed the output transformers in Kaiju to have an additional tap at 2 ohms so that the series connection can be made for a 4 ohm load. The usual 4-8-16 ohm taps can be used to handle 8, 16 or 32 ohm loads in this bridged mode.

For some years, the large and complex Bottlehead reference system used four 300B amps per channel wired this way to drive the midrange speakers, which gave us a good deal of experience with this connection.

Incidentally, this is not an issue when paralleling pentodes, which have high internal resistance. I have designed, and we have built, an experimental pair of SE parallel pentode monoblocks with 6550s, making over 50 watts each. These amps us a single plate choke and output transformer each.

Paul Joppa


Offline braubeat

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Reply #2 on: March 14, 2018, 02:12:27 PM
I hate to be a troublemaker (not really) but this arrangement could very easily be converted to single ended push pull as in the Marcel and Clovis amps by Phil Seig of the old Valve magazine days. All you would need is an interstage transformer to split the phase and a few changes to the circuit. Ever since I saw the article on this amp I have wanted to hear one. 

Michael



Offline Doc B.

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Reply #3 on: March 14, 2018, 03:23:39 PM
It won't sound as good, at least not to me. That's why we strap SE amps when we want more power.

Dan "Doc B." Schmalle
President For Life
Bottlehead Corp.


Offline Jamier

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Reply #4 on: March 14, 2018, 04:55:01 PM
For those who haven't series bridged a (Bottlehead) single ended amp, you should try it. I have series bridged Stereomour IIs. There is no loss of transparency, no degradation of image, simply a doubling of power with no sonic penalty.

Jamie
« Last Edit: March 15, 2018, 04:23:59 AM by Jamier »

James Robbins


Offline Paul Birkeland

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Reply #5 on: March 16, 2018, 07:40:33 AM
All you would need is an interstage transformer to split the phase and a few changes to the circuit.

You don't even need that.  A paraphrase phase inverter could be made from what's there already without too much fussing.

The series single ended approach is indeed quite superior though.

Paul "PB" Birkeland

Bottlehead Grunt & The Repro Man


Offline Doc B.

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Reply #6 on: March 16, 2018, 07:54:44 AM
Hahah, he said paraphrase!

Dan "Doc B." Schmalle
President For Life
Bottlehead Corp.


Offline Paul Joppa

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Reply #7 on: March 16, 2018, 08:54:16 AM
How many spells could a spell-check check, if a spell-check could check spells?

I am of course paraphrasing my grandfather, who was very fond of tongue-twisters.  :^)

Paul Joppa


Offline richp4003

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Reply #8 on: March 17, 2018, 01:56:13 PM
Wow! VERY interesting response. I kind of just started the investigation into whether I want to try 300B.. then I thought PSE was the way to go for a bit more power.. THEN upon posting on Audiokarma a few guys chimed in talking about the sound degrading that can take place with PSE, the same as you mentioned Paul. (which, given how "pure" we are trying to keep 300b, sort of defeats the purpose)

I really need to find someone with a 300B SET amp so I can borrow it for an afternoon.. I've yet to hear one (and hoping I don't fall in love because I am a big fan of my luxmans)



Offline Paul Birkeland

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Reply #9 on: March 20, 2018, 07:10:44 AM
What part of the world do you live in?  There might be someone close by...

Paul "PB" Birkeland

Bottlehead Grunt & The Repro Man


Offline richp4003

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Reply #10 on: March 27, 2018, 04:05:03 AM
I live in Fairfield, CT, USA.



Offline richp4003

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Reply #11 on: June 13, 2018, 07:37:54 AM
So.. I was fortunate enough to have a DIY/builder come over with one of his 300B SET amplifiers (C3G drivers, elecrtraprint OPT)...

SET literally rocked my world. My luxman KT88 push-pull set up is by no means a weak link.. but 300B SET was something else! Detail, air, etc. Gone was that bit of harshness that makes itself apparent on the Zu Druid speakers.

Now I am on the hunt again for SET. Had a few more questions/ asking for opinions:

- Is there any quality degradation running these as monoblocks?
- What are the sonic difference?
- Is this a better path than going to a transmitter based SET (211, 845, etc)

I do listen to a lot of new wave, rock, modern indie (sort of all over the map) I miss the drive/punch/bass of the push pull, but as it stands I would take the 300B SET. However, if I can get more of what I like in the p-p in the SET setup.. then I would be golden.



Offline Paul Birkeland

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Reply #12 on: June 13, 2018, 07:45:16 AM
- Is there any quality degradation running these as monoblocks?
We do not believe so with the method that we use to bridge the amps.

- What are the sonic difference?
More power!

- Is this a better path than going to a transmitter based SET (211, 845, etc)
This is a bit of a complicated answer.  I build a lot of random amps with transmitting tubes, and I own a Kaiju, so I can give some commentary from experience.  When you go a higher power single ended amp like a 211 or 845, the output transformer grows significantly.  On a 60W amp I'm working on, the transformers alone were $1500.  If you're looking at a 211 or 845 amp that's $2000-ish new, the quality of the output transformers will be a concern.  With many transmitter tubes, there is a design choice to be made about how much feedback you use.  If you use no feedback, the output transformer has to be a very high impedance step-down device, and these rarely have sufficient inductance to provide a satisfying bottom end.  If feedback is used, the transformer requirements relax a little bit but then you have a different harmonic distortion profile that may not be as pleasing.


Paul "PB" Birkeland

Bottlehead Grunt & The Repro Man


Offline Doc B.

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Reply #13 on: June 13, 2018, 08:25:23 AM
The 845 and 211 sound different than the 300B. Those amps tend to be more neutral sounding, while the 300B has more body in the lower mids that fleshes out the music a little better. That is one of the main attractions of the 300B. So if you heard a 300B amp and liked it, get a 300B amp. If you heard a 45 amp and liked it but wanted more power, get an 845 amp.

I used an 845 preamp for an extended period in place of my usual 300B preamp. These were running strapped Kaijus. Both sounded great, but I eventually went back to the 300B. It just sounds more relaxed and natural to me.

Dan "Doc B." Schmalle
President For Life
Bottlehead Corp.


Offline richp4003

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Reply #14 on: June 13, 2018, 10:03:58 AM
We do not believe so with the method that we use to bridge the amps.
More power!
This is a bit of a complicated answer...

Thank you and to Doc B.. Yes, I did like the sound. The issue I had with it was I felt it could use a bit more drive/punch/quickness? to it. The amplifier was all interstage transformer coupled, and using a basic EH tube. Would the additional power alone in a Kaiju monoblock solve some of this drive and quickness? (I know this is hard to say as there are MANY variables at play here)

Another question: Are the OPTs on Kaiju "special" beyond the 2 ohm tap for bridging.. or could they be replaced/upgraded down the road like something off the shelf from Tango? (realizing it would need 4/8 ohm taps to then make 8/16)