Another BP2 lives ... and hums a bit [resolved]

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Deke609

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on: April 15, 2021, 08:14:53 AM
Finished my BP2 last night and swapped it in for my modified BP1 this morning ... and I hear some some 120 Hz hum like the posters here http://forum.bottlehead.com/index.php?topic=13096.0 and here http://forum.bottlehead.com/index.php?topic=13058.0

My observations are the same as those of the previous posters: the hum varies with volume but does not change with balance. It is also louder in the left channel, and doesn't switch sides if I swap left and right rca inputs.  The hum isn't very loud, but is noticeable with no music playing and in silent passages.

The build is 100% stock ... but I just noticed that PB recommends rewiring the connections for the ground filter/lift resistor/diodes/capacitor bundle. So I will do that this wknd. And while I'm at it will reflow all the joints, including on the fil-reg board. I will report back once I've done all this.

cheers, Derek
« Last Edit: April 18, 2021, 06:20:05 PM by Paul Birkeland »



Offline Paul Birkeland

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Reply #1 on: April 15, 2021, 08:38:36 AM
Are you using this in front of a power amp and with headphones?

Paul "PB" Birkeland

Bottlehead Grunt & The Repro Man


Deke609

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Reply #2 on: April 15, 2021, 08:53:37 AM
Yes to both questions. In front of the modified Kaiju (with Monolith Magnetics iron, including OPTs with higher secondary impedances to better match my headphones) which drives my LCD4 headphones.  No audible hum using the modified BP1.

cheers, Derek



Deke609

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Reply #3 on: April 15, 2021, 06:36:53 PM
Slight hum aside, man, this thing sounds good after only 10 hours or so of burn in.  Lots of smiles and head nodding. And this with the stock caps and a resistor plate load! Wouldn't have thunk it possible. Based on past experience, I expect it will start sounding worse for a while as the caps continue to "form" (or whatever they do), and then start coming into its own after 50+ hours. Looking forward to that. Color me impressed!

cheers, Derek



Deke609

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Reply #4 on: April 17, 2021, 01:25:34 PM
Well, I had an enjoyable day trying different things to get rid of the slight hum. No luck - but the tweaking was fun.

Things I tried:

(1) reheating the fil reg board - no change

(2) Moving the 0V/chassis/earth connection to T13 - no change

(3) Rerouting the left channel dc filament supply so that it doesn't pass between the fil reg board and the PT -- maybe a tiny improvement

(4) moving the body of the grid stoppers right up against the grid pin -- no change

(5) rejigging the the B+ filter from CRCRC to CRCRCRCRC -- no change


So I don't know. The hum is just loud enough to be a tiny bit bothersome. Not the end of the world, but it would be great if it wasn't there.  Just for the heck of it, I'm going to try a 100K volume pot in place of the balance pot and remove the 10K volume pot.  Just to see.  I can swap back easily enough. If that makes no difference, then my guess is that some ripple is making it through the regulator -- but this seems doubtful. Then again, PJ designed a noise shunt after the LM1085 reg in the BP1 -- so maybe it's possible?  But Id'nt know enough to adapt PJ's noise shunt to the BP2, so if it's an issue with the reg, I'm outta luck.

Edit: When I swap in a 100K vol pot for the bal pot and remove the 10K, I assume I should replace the 10K pot with a resistor. If that's correct, what value would folks suggest? The BP1 uses a 475K resistor.

cheers and thanks, Derek
« Last Edit: April 17, 2021, 01:33:48 PM by Deke609 »



Offline Paul Joppa

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Reply #5 on: April 17, 2021, 02:30:44 PM
Credit where it's due - PB suggested using the noise shunt, when we found too much hum in an early prototype of the original BP. I just did a bit of analysis to calculate proper values for some of the resistors.

In BeePre-II, we gave up the filament bias in favor of cathode resistors and a pair of heater balancing resistors (130 + 130 ohms), and used the Kaiju regulator which has better performance than the LM-1085. If you short out one of the 130-ohm resistors, any noise the reg passes would become much more clear. If you can't hear a difference, then it's not the regulator  :^)   IIRC, PB and DocB  tried it first with a Kaiju humpot and found no discernible effect.

Common-mode noise on the heater supplies remains a possibility. Reducing the 130 ohm resistors to something in the range 20-50 ohms ought to reduce that source audibly. (You might have to adjust the filament voltage if you try this.)

Your experiment with adding more filter stages to the HV strongly suggests it's not that.

The preamp incorporates a ground lifter, so it's unlikely to be a ground loop - though not impossible.

Other thoughts are electric or magnetic fields, or electromagnetic (radio) waves.

Paul Joppa


Deke609

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Reply #6 on: April 17, 2021, 02:50:21 PM
Many thanks PJ.

... If you short out one of the 130-ohm resistors, any noise the reg passes would become much more clear. ...

Common-mode noise on the heater supplies remains a possibility. Reducing the 130 ohm resistors to something in the range 20-50 ohms ought to reduce that source audibly. (You might have to adjust the filament voltage if you try this.) ...

I am half way through experimenting with putting a 100K vol pot in place of the bal pot and removing the 10K pot. If that doesn't work, I will give your above two suggestions a try. 

cheers and thanks, Derek



Deke609

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Reply #7 on: April 17, 2021, 03:50:09 PM
Swapping in a 100K vol pot for the balance pot and removing the 10K vol pot made the hum much worse. And I could feel a slight vibration in the chassis that seemed to match the hum. Hum was the same pitch as before, but louder. So I will undo this tomorrow and try PJ's suggestions above.

cheers, Derek




Deke609

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Reply #8 on: April 17, 2021, 05:33:38 PM
... or electromagnetic (radio) waves.

That reminds me that my "Bigby" prototype rebuild of my BP1 had a similar slight hum. The prototype chassis was all wood, including top plate. When I built the final version in an all-aluminum chassis, the hum was gone. It would be easy enough to line the interior of the BP chassis with copper foil tape, including the top lip that the aluminum plate sits on.  I'll give it go.

cheers, Derek



Deke609

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Reply #9 on: April 18, 2021, 04:28:34 PM
Success! (mostly) and a weird observation.

The hum is now down to a level that is negligibly audible at my normal (loud) listening volumes. I have to concentrate to hear it -- and this is with no music playing. It is still there if I crank the volume knob with no music playing. But with the OPTs of my modded Kaiju set to 64 ohms nominal secondary output impedance, I never go more than about half way on the volume knob - so I am happy with the hum level.

The only problem is that I have no idea what fixed it. I restored the stock bal and vol pots and added a bit of different spacing between some of the wiring. I left the ground/chassis connection at T13 b/c I didn't feel like undoing the changes I made to the B+ filter. BUT, I realized that I previously forgot to reinstall the ground lift/filter thingy when I moved the ground to T13. So I rejigged the wiring at the T13 terminal strip and added the thingy there. So what reduced the hum? No idea. It might even have been a bad original solder joint - I doubt it (don't we all), b/c I was particularly fussy about making each joint as good as I reasonably could - strong crimped mechanical connections wherever possible, high heat and watched for the solder to flow like water ... and I took my time with the initial build instead of doing my usual marathon "getting it done tonight" session -- but you never know.

Now the weird observation: both tubes vibrate. One more than the other -- I think it's the one that measured highest for cathode bias - 10V versus 9.83V. I'll check in the next few days.  Tubes otherwise look normal - no abnormal glow that I can see and neither gets particularly hot -- compared to the Kaiju.  But I noticed the vibration as soon as I powered the BP2 on. And then kept my hands on the Kaiju 300Bs as powered up that amp -- no detected vibration -- at least until the tubes got too hot to touch.  I am pretty certain the vibration is coming from the tubes. There's negligible to no vibration at the chassis near the tube sockets and zero vibration coming from the power trafo.  (Addendum: after finishing writing this post I felt the tubes again - the vibration has settled down but is still there).

Finally, the important stuff: more listening impressions. It is truly superb with my modified Kaiju. I've got Fleetwod Mac's self-titled album playing now through Roon and I am way more into it than I normally would be. Since I'm still playing around with the volume control in my modded BP1, I can switch between TVC and BeeQuiet attenuators in that amp, which makes for interesting comparisons. Compared to the BP2, the BP1 w/ TVC is more precise/detailed but comparatively lifeless and the BP1 w/ BeeQuiet just sounds like a lesser version of the BP2. I might still give the nod to the BP1 w/ TVC for select jazz and classical recordings where I want to hear the timbre of every note, but otherwise I strongly pref the BP2. Amazing! I can't speak to how the BP2 compares to a stock BP1 since mine is so modded.  So perhaps they're more comparable than my experience suggests. [Edit: and this is with the stock caps still breaking in. The BP1 has fully broken in fancy Vcaps coupling caps and film caps in the B+ filter -- maybe when the BP2 is fully upgraded and gets its own complement of fancy caps it will completely overtake the BP1. Can't wait to find out]

Man, oh, man, there's a very strong likelihood that I'll be rebuilding the BP1 along the lines of the BP2 this summer. I'll be setting up a 2-channel system for tv/movies and lower volume listening - so I'll have a use for both BPs, and will have found a permanent use for my 2 Stereomour IIs. Awesomeness!

[Edit: I should mention that I am using JJ 300B tubes previously broken in with the BP1. I haven't listened to them in a while since I now use EML 300Bs in the BP1 and Kaiju and had to tweak the filament supply to use them. But I recall finding the JJs really punchy (punchier than the EML) but a bit stiff and rough/sharp around the edges-- but not in the BP2 - the music is beautifully fluid]

cheers, Derek
« Last Edit: April 19, 2021, 04:51:29 AM by Deke609 »