pc based audio

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Offline Doc B.

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Reply #30 on: January 08, 2011, 09:58:59 PM
Yup, John Swenson is absolutely not to be left out of these conversations. He is the most knowledgeable of the folks who have worked on this project when it comes to the digital realm and that aspect of the design is definitely contributed by John. PJ and I have been discussing some new ideas for the analog part of the D/A, and we will be testing some theories over the next month or two, with PJ leading that part of the development. I know some of you guys are champing at the bit for the DAC. My job is to decide when we need to do just a little more experimentation to get it the best we can before going into production. Right now we are in one of those phases where we may have a new idea that can give us another nice jump in performance, with the added bonus of a bit less cost. That makes it easy for me to say we need a little more time to get this thing the best we can.

Dan "Doc B." Schmalle
President For Life
Bottlehead Corp.


Offline AudioDave

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Reply #31 on: January 09, 2011, 05:23:59 AM
dstrimbu,  you mentioned in your post below a program called dbpoweramp for making bitperfect FLAC rips of CD's.  I have heard of and was wondering if you have tried EAC (Exact Audio Copy)?  I was just curious how they compared.  I would like to rip my CD collection and want to use the best program and I am definitely not an expert at this at all.
Thanks,
Dave



Offline Jim R.

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Reply #32 on: January 09, 2011, 07:13:47 AM
Hi Xavier,

A couple of things...

I've owned both the Proton and the Cosecant -- with both the high-res and NOS dac modules, and the cosecant is way better than the proton, but that doesn't mean the proton is a bad dac.  Also, neither of those live here anymore because I was able to do a side-by-side comparison with my current dac, and again, there was no contest.

With regards to processing power, there is actually a point of diminishing returns as once you have enough power to move bits out the door (and this can be easily improved with any given computer by shutting down background process and other things that could grab the processor's time), any processing power above that is just additional RF energy that invades the circuitry and has the potential tointerfer with the signals.  Also, with laptops, you can never get too far from the display hardware, and this seems to be one very large contributor to digital noise and interference, again lowering the quality of playback.  I run the Mac mini headless and use a remote app on an iPod touch to control it, which also lets me turn off the bluetooth and IR ports, which add another step in improvements.  This stuff is criticaly sensitive to absolutely everything, and especially the AC power fed to the entire digital chain, the cablinhg -- there's a huge variability in quality to be experienced with different usb cables, firewire cables, etc.  If I had not done these experiments for myself, I would be skeptical as any normal engineer would be.

Increasing memory is typically a good idea, but again, only if your playback software can support truly track-buffered memory play, which most sofware out there can't do.  The speed of the external HD is also another factor, and the 5400 rpm drives typically sound better than the faster 7200 ones, and the firewire chipset in the drive can also have a pretty noticeable effect, with the Oxford 934 chipset being the current go-to unit.

So, the point here is that it's great that you did a comparison, I think if you're going to compare a sota turntable and R2R unit to a computer-based dac as source, you really should strive to do more of an apples to apples comparison.  Of course, I can understand why you can't do that as this stuff, at this level, whilee not cheap, is typically not as expensive as a similar level TT or R2R setup.

I have been underwhelmed by most dacs, even expensive, high-res ones for years, but for me, the major concen was the convenience of access to my music, which as a blind person, and a sizeable music collection, was getting unmanageable.

It was less than a year ago now when the predecessor to my current dac came out, and that's when things really started to happen.  I've played with windows boxes of various kinds from laptops to htpcs, to single-board linux boxes (very, very good and quite inexpensive) and finally in October, I took the plunge and joined the mac world and that was the quantum leap to the entire system that took it up to a level where I am now, which is further than I ever expected to be, regardless of source type.

Friends come by and listen, some very hardcore audiophiles with nothing but analog setups and are simply stunned to silence, especially the ones whose systems cost more than an order of magnitude more than mine.  When that happens, all I can think is that I must have done something right -- if the people who have been fairly critical of my system (as polietely as possible) leave here shaking their heads, well, maybe I finally feel vindicated :-).

So there it is -- a computer, usb dac (16/44.1 only), a custom LDR attenuator, a pair of 3 watt direct-coupled amps, and a pair of speakers with 8 inch main drivers and a ribbon tweet, copper cabling, no power conditioning (yet) and I'm living large.

Best,

Jim

Jim Rebman -- recovering audiophile

Equitech balanced power; uRendu, USB processor -> Musette DAC -> 5670 tube buffer -> Finale Audio F138 FFX -> Cain and Cain Abbys near-field).

s.e.x. 2.1 under construction.  Want list: Stereomour II

All ICs homemade (speaker and power next)


Offline Beefy

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Reply #33 on: January 09, 2011, 07:46:54 AM
dstrimbu,  you mentioned in your post below a program called dbpoweramp for making bitperfect FLAC rips of CD's.  I have heard of and was wondering if you have tried EAC (Exact Audio Copy)?  I was just curious how they compared.  I would like to rip my CD collection and want to use the best program and I am definitely not an expert at this at all.
Thanks,
Dave

I used to use EAC extensively before trying dbpoweramp. I liked dbpoweramp so much, I bought it within about 20 minutes of use; same functionality, but in a *much* more user friendly and stable package.



Offline dstrimbu

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Reply #34 on: January 09, 2011, 03:52:46 PM
dstrimbu,  you mentioned in your post below a program called dbpoweramp for making bitperfect FLAC rips of CD's.  I have heard of and was wondering if you have tried EAC (Exact Audio Copy)?  I was just curious how they compared.  I would like to rip my CD collection and want to use the best program and I am definitely not an expert at this at all.
Thanks,
Dave

I used to use EAC extensively before trying dbpoweramp. I liked dbpoweramp so much, I bought it within about 20 minutes of use; same functionality, but in a *much* more user friendly and stable package.

Thanks Beefy, you beat me to it.  Dave, EAC was a bit iffy on my Win 7 machine; dbpoweramp is much more stable and easy to use.  I bought a license the next day... its that good.  You won't regret it; ripping CDs is a boring process and making it foolproof the first time was critical to me.  I actually went back and re-ripped several hundred discs that I had previously ripped with older versions of MediaMonkey.

-don



Offline AudioDave

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Reply #35 on: January 10, 2011, 12:37:26 AM
Thanks for the replies guys,  I checked out dbpoweramp and I agree it is much easier than EAC.  Thanks for the suggestion!
Dave



Offline Yoder

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Reply #36 on: March 04, 2011, 10:51:20 AM
So here I go, a Proton and a new, dedicated, Macbook Pro (there's consensus that the more processing capacity of the machine the better it will sound).

This was a very valid statement a few years ago, but with the continual increase in processing power you could get away with using a MacMini as your dedicated audio computer. Kind of hate to waste the beautiful LED screen on just music. Besides, the Mini has basically the same processor as the MBP's except you cannot boot the newer one's into 64-bit mode without doing a firmware hack that will nullify the warranty.



Offline Jim R.

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Reply #37 on: March 04, 2011, 12:56:07 PM
Hi Yoder,

Don't get me wrong, the MBP makes a very nice music player, but the mini is really the superior machine for this purpose -- when given the full treatment of OS tweaks, music drive on a different type of interface than the dac, maximized memory, SSD, 64-bit mode, hogmode enabled, etc.

Also, try flipping the power cord on the mini and you get asomewhat different presentation -- more dynamic and detailed in one orientation, more warm and smooth in the oother.

Next up will be my new linux box with voyage linux .6 and the latest version of MPD, all controlled from the MPoD app on an iPod Touch...

-- Jim


I just tested two identically spec'ed mcs -- a 2010 mini w/8gb ram and 2.4 ghz processor and an MBP with same ram and processor, and the mini is the clear winner and by a substantial margin.  But there are some other factors to consider -- the mini is running headless with no display and only a usb keyboard and has a fully tweaked operating system (that does indeed boot into 64-bit mode) and the MBP is stock with all my working software installed on it.  both machines have SSD drives, and both used the same external firewire 800 music storage drive.  Both machines are also running the same playback software -- latest version of PureMusic

Jim Rebman -- recovering audiophile

Equitech balanced power; uRendu, USB processor -> Musette DAC -> 5670 tube buffer -> Finale Audio F138 FFX -> Cain and Cain Abbys near-field).

s.e.x. 2.1 under construction.  Want list: Stereomour II

All ICs homemade (speaker and power next)


Offline Yoder

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Reply #38 on: March 05, 2011, 09:09:15 AM
Hi Yoder,

Don't get me wrong, the MBP makes a very nice music player, but the mini is really the superior machine for this purpose -- when given the full treatment of OS tweaks, music drive on a different type of interface than the dac, maximized memory, SSD, 64-bit mode, hogmode enabled, etc.

-- Jim

I think you misunderstood me, I am for using the MacMini as a music server in place of a MBP, and have one performing such duties in my home while the 17" MBP is used for other duties. If you are using a new Mini, then I am curious how you got it to run in 64-bit mode without violating the warranty. I don't know why Apple won't give it 64-bit capabilities like the server has, but you cannot boot in 64-bit mode without hacking into the firmware. I have filed my concerns with Apple, but I doubt if me little voice will have much impact.



Offline Jim R.

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Reply #39 on: March 05, 2011, 11:02:40 AM
Hi Yoder,

I don't know how the guys at Mach2 Music did it, but it does run in 64-bit mode.  Not sure if this is on even newer minis, but mine was purchased directly from Apple last September.  I think there are 3 significant differences between my mini and MBP -- the mini has the highly tweaked OS and launch scripts for the music players, the power supply on the mini is better (even better sounding than batteries on the MBP), and the lack of a LED screen, which really does seem to introduce some nasties in the system.

I've also used the mini without the OS tweaks, and the sound is much closer to the stock MBP, so reducing the OS overhead and the launch scripts that shutdown all unnecessary processes just before the music player apps run, is also very key to the sound.  In fact, it is very easy to just launch the apps without the scripts and even that is a very noticeable difference.

So, the mini is cheaper,, can run without a display, is silent with an SSD, can use after market power cords if desired, is smaller (in terms of typical audio rack real estate) and is super easy to upgrade the memory on.  This system as it is now is right up there with some of the cost-no-object transports and dacs, and is far more convenient (once setup, that is.)

Back to your original question/concern -- it came with the software tweak package, and if something goes wrong, Mach2 Music will take care of it, I'm sure.

I'm a relative Mac newbie, so I really don't know all the ins and outs of the OS and aside from some basic tweaks to improve music player performance (which are all documented all over the internet) I wouldn't dare go hacking the kernel or anything else myself.

-- Jim

Jim Rebman -- recovering audiophile

Equitech balanced power; uRendu, USB processor -> Musette DAC -> 5670 tube buffer -> Finale Audio F138 FFX -> Cain and Cain Abbys near-field).

s.e.x. 2.1 under construction.  Want list: Stereomour II

All ICs homemade (speaker and power next)


Offline Yoder

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Reply #40 on: March 05, 2011, 07:23:24 PM
Jim, I just visited the Mac2Music site http://www.mach2music.com/. Yea, they must do the firmware hack that will boot in 64-bit mode. I am a little confused where they say they "We strip out almost 1.5GB of unnecessary code" from the OS. I know you can turn certain things off like the Spotlight by typing in the terminal: $ sudo mdutil -a -i off

The above is supposed to help with the sound quality. Since the Apple warranty is still valid, my guess is that they are doing a lot of terminal commands, but the 64-bit thing confuses me still. If you change the firmware so that it will boot in 64-bit, then you void the warranty and they say the warranty is not voided...unless they have an agreement with Apple.

Will you check something for me?

Go to the Open Apple on the upper top left of the screen -> About this Mac -> More Info -> Software -> 64-bit Kernel and Extensions Does this say "Yes"?

After looking at their site it appears that they do 2 hardware upgrades: 4 Gb of RAM and a SSD. The cable they make looks like a BH cable with a C7 connector--now there is an idea worth pursuing, especially since they charge $299 for their's.



Offline InfernoSTi

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Reply #41 on: March 06, 2011, 03:23:49 AM
Per Apple, the mid-2010 Mac Mini can use 64-bit, it is simply not by default (unless you are running the Server OS which uses it by default).  Apple states they can use 64-bit if user selected: no hack, no warranty worries.

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT3770

Last Modified: February 28, 2011
Article: HT3770
 
Summary
Learn which Macs can use the 64-bit kernel in Mac OS X v10.6 and which use it by default.

These Macs use the 64-bit kernel by default in Mac OS X v10.6:
Mac Pro (Mid 2010)
MacBook Pro (Early 2011)

These Macs use the 64-bit kernel by default in Mac OS X Server v10.6 (they can also use the 64-bit kernel in Mac OS X v10.6, but do not use it by default):
Xserve (Early 2008) and later
Mac Pro (Early 2008) and later
Mac mini (Mid 2010)

These Macs support the 64-bit kernel, but do not use it by default.
iMac (Early 2008) and later
MacBook Pro (Early 2008 through Mid 2010)

John Kessel
Hawthorne Audio AMT K2 Reference Speakers
Paramount 300B w/MQ All Nickel Iron,  Mundorf S/G 5.5 uF,  and  Vcap Teflon .1 uF
Auralic Taurus Preamp/Auralic Vega DAC/Auralic Aries Streamer
and lots of room treatments!


Offline Jim R.

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Reply #42 on: March 06, 2011, 04:43:34 AM
Thanks, John.  I knew there was no real hacks involved with this, but didn't know the details -- and actually still don't, but I trust Darrell at Mach2Music.

BTW, I am in no way affiliated with either Mach2Music or Pi Audio Group --  the makers of the MPC power cable and Mac Sandwich, just a satisfied customer and one who has met all the people involved and hold them in the same high esteem as the Bottlehead crew.

I'm also wondering if we're straying a bit out of the bottlehead realm and wonder if we shouldn't take this offline?

Last night just as we were leaving for an evening out, a priority box arrived with my new mac sandwich, and new MPC + and Source 1 + power cables for the mini and dac respectively, so today I'm putting the system back togther so then I can look at my mini config for you, Yoder and let you know what the story is with the 64-bit enabled.

Just a note, I was a betatester for the original MPC power cable, and while I certainly can't define value for anybody else, I have tosay the improvement between this cable and the stock cable that came with the mini is pretty amazing, and from those I know who now have the plus version, they say it is just much more of the same goodness.. I'm about to find out.

-- Jim

Jim Rebman -- recovering audiophile

Equitech balanced power; uRendu, USB processor -> Musette DAC -> 5670 tube buffer -> Finale Audio F138 FFX -> Cain and Cain Abbys near-field).

s.e.x. 2.1 under construction.  Want list: Stereomour II

All ICs homemade (speaker and power next)


Offline Yoder

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Reply #43 on: March 06, 2011, 06:27:26 AM
This is interesting. I got a mid-2010 Mini, and originally it could not be booted in 64-bit mode. After visiting the Apple link that Inferno posted I did a reboot and got into 64-bit mode. My guess is that Apple bent to the needs of the consumers, since there we a lot of hot folks out there who could not initially boot the new mid-2010 Mini into 64-bit mode.

There is one problem with 64-bit, and that is that a lot of audio drivers will not work with it. As soon as I got into 64-bit today I lost my E-Mu 0404 USB. Consequently, I am back in 32-bit mode and will go to 64-bit when I replace the 0404. There are a lot of older, and some newer, audio devices (E-Mu, M-Audio) that will not talk to OS X 64.

The Mach2Mini is a nice box, but I would like to figure out what he does so that I can do the same...$1495 is to rich for my blood.

There appears to be 3 hardware upgrades: SSD, 4 Gb (got it), and the power cord (easy to make.) The power cord seems to be the biggie. I was using an Apple HDMI cable for awhile until the cat chewed through it. Replaced it with a better one and what a profound difference.

Jim, you will have to give us some feedback (if you so desire) as to what apps, and utilities have been turned off...stuff like the Spotlight, maybe certain Dock/startup components, etc. Since the Mini does not boot in 64-bit mode by default, I am curious how he does it. I use SixtyFourSwitcher for my machines that do not do it by defaut http://seiryu.home.comcast.net/~seiryu/sixtyfourswitcher.html, he may just do it via a terminal command.

Regarding if this thread should be pulled...NO. This has been a learning experience for me. At least I know that I can now boot in 64-bit mode--notice the date of the Apple post 28Feb2011.

Good info.



Offline Doc B.

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Reply #44 on: March 06, 2011, 06:56:45 AM
FWIW I got an early Intel Mini playing Amarra 2.11 running into our prototype DAC via the Mini optical in and out for the meet yesterday. Working quite nicely. We were listening with Crack and HD800s and HD600s yesterday. Hope to get it into the big system for more critical eval this afternoon.

Dan "Doc B." Schmalle
President For Life
Bottlehead Corp.