What I want in a DAC

glynnw · 64186

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Yoder

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
    • Posts: 253
Reply #45 on: November 30, 2011, 10:40:24 AM
You could also go the cheap route that I did and have a local shop install a SSD drive for the boot drive, and then use the existing drive (500 Gb) as the secondary (have the music on this one.) It cost me $145 to have a 64 Gb Crucial SSD installed. If you have an Apple "Superdrive" then there also exists a kit that allows you to pull it and replace it with either a SSD or conventional HD. They are starting to produce external SSDs with a Thunderbolt interface that would also work as a boot drive...a little pricey though, but then all HDs have gone up quite a bit lately due to the flooding. Though the flooding happened a couple of months ago, I think the industry is still trying to capitalize on it with the continued high prices.



Offline Yoder

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
    • Posts: 253
Reply #46 on: November 30, 2011, 10:49:24 AM
Back to the topic at hand: "What I want in a DAC"

Having the capability to do something like this would be a nice for future upgrades:
Full Upgrade
Digital Upgrade
« Last Edit: December 01, 2011, 04:12:06 AM by Yoder »



Offline earwaxxer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 1336
Reply #47 on: November 30, 2011, 01:13:57 PM
If I had the choice to buy any DAC available today under $10K I would go with the new and improved Berkeley Audio Alpha DAC II and not look back. If I had the $5K or so to spend there are other bigger bang for the buck that would improve my system, ie. amps and speakers. I think we get hung up on the bits though.

Eric
Emotiva XPA-2, Magnepan MMG (mod), Quickie (mod), JRiver, Wyrd4sound uLink, Schiit Gungnir, JPS Digital power cord, MIT power cord, JPS Labs ultraconductor wire throughout, HSU sub. powered by Crown.


Offline Chris

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
    • Posts: 671
Reply #48 on: December 01, 2011, 06:36:22 PM
This is "off topic", but the AN upgrade parts I think is a super idea, and it hit on a question that i have always had, i have a cd/dac combo that was $6000 a few years back , I love it, however, i saw that it has 2 BB 1702 chips in it, and i was always wondering if i could just pull those out and install some 1704ks in it, without having to do anything else? i know nothing about this stuff.... but just for fun....



Offline earwaxxer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 1336
Reply #49 on: December 02, 2011, 05:46:47 AM
Hey Chris - I'm hearing you on your urge to tinker! I have blown a couple of components by getting my fingers (and soldering iron) in places I probably shouldnt have been. Fortunately they were "expendable" in terms of price and I could move on. Sometimes I get the yen to crack open my Squeezebox Transporter ($2K). I so far have resisted, and I think that as far as DAC's are concerned, thats the best policy.

Eric
Emotiva XPA-2, Magnepan MMG (mod), Quickie (mod), JRiver, Wyrd4sound uLink, Schiit Gungnir, JPS Digital power cord, MIT power cord, JPS Labs ultraconductor wire throughout, HSU sub. powered by Crown.


Offline Chris

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
    • Posts: 671
Reply #50 on: December 03, 2011, 05:10:43 PM
Wax... I think you are absolutely correct, and Docs Dac will have the 1704 in it anyway, I will just get that one and have fun comparing.... ruining a great component is definitely a "tinkerers" worst nightmare...



Offline John Swenson

  • Full Member
  • ***
    • Posts: 114
Reply #51 on: December 13, 2011, 10:07:43 PM
Hi Guys, I had a few minutes to spare and saw this thread, I thought I would give a little clarity as to what will be in the first pass of the DAC. (Doc doesn't even know all this!)

The physical packaging that Doc and I came up with is somewhat limiting, the board size is 4x3 inches which sort of limits what I can put directly on the main board.

Whats on there right now (which is most likely what will be there for the real thing, I really don't want to re-lay out this board) is S/PDIF coax (BNC), S/PDIF TOSLINK and USB 1.0. I chose BNC so that if you really do have a good proper 75 ohm source (not very common) you have a way to get it directly into the DAC. For those that have RCA cables you can use an RCA to BNC adapter. another reason is that you can buy AES/EBU adapters that will plug directly into this connector.  The TOSLINK is standard TOSLINK, it's the fastest one Toshiba makes today, I really don't know if it will do 192 since I don't have anything that produces a 192 TOSLINK signal.

The S/PDIF coax input is very special. I do NOT use an off the shelf receiver chip. I designed a special circuit which radically "cleans up" the input signal which makes it far less susceptible to reflections and noise, which hopefully is going to get rid of a fair amount of influence from source and cables. Unfortunately this circuit takes about 25 parts, which takes up a lot of room on the board. The output of this circuit goes directly to the FPGA which does all the S/PDIF decoding.

I was going to do the same sort of input circuit for the TOSLINK, but I ran out of room on the board and figured it was more important to get it on the coax input. If the coax winds up being significantly better than the TOSLINK and there is interest I might wind up making an external TOSLINK module that uses the same sort of input circuit.

The USB is USB audio spec 1.0, which will go up to 24/96. Doing USB audio 2.0 takes considerably more hardware and I simply didn't have room on the board. The signal from the jack goes into a simple transceiver then directly into the FPGA which does all the USB decoding. Contrary to all modern hype and my own philosophy on the subject, this USB input will not be "asynchronous", it will be adaptive. See the next paragraph as to why this is not so bad.

The "secret weapon" of this design is the clock circuit. A major issue with S/PDIF and adaptive USB is that the DAC must somehow "sync up" with the data rate from the source. This is usually done with a PLL which creates a fair amount of jitter on its own. There is another approach which uses a low jitter adjustable oscillator and a buffer, the input puts data in the buffer and the local clock takes it out. When the buffer starts getting close to full or empty the circuit speeds up or slows down the clock. This is what I have in here. Doing this well is not easy which is why its not done very often. It is true that an adjustable oscillator of a given price is always going to be higher jitter than a fixed one, but this is a very good adjustable one. It is the single most expensive part in the whole design. Using this circuit with the USB lets me get away with using adaptive, but its going to have lower jitter than all but the very best async designs.

There is also a card edge connector which will have a slot in the top panel. The original purpose was for a sample rate display. If you want the display, plug in the board, if you don't want the display, don't plug it in. It uses standard LED displays which come in many colors, so if you want a different color than what Doc provides in the kit you can easily buy them. The display is static, meaning that there are NO changing signals going to the board except when the number changes, this cuts down a lot on noise generated by a display.

Then I started thinking about the connector and what I could do with it. I've come up with a universal expansion protocol that can be used with this connector. It uses LVDS which radically cuts down on radiated noise so it won't be too bad. This lets anybody make an expansion module that plugs into this slot. Some possibilities are:
Multiple S/PDIF input board, USB 2.0 input board, fancy displays such as Nixie tubes or VU meters, or even magic eye VU meters etc. And my favorite (but don't tell Doc), the possibility to slave DACs so you can have a multichannel DAC. A USB 2.0 input would have plenty of bandwidth for say 6 channels, it would also have a special connector on it. Each additional DAC would have an expansion board in its slots and cables would daisy chain between them.   I'm sure it could be made to work, but it would take a lot of effort.

My idea with this is to publish this expansion protocol so anybody that wants to make a module that plugs into this slot can do so. Its not super simple to make one, you need a processor or FPGA to talk the protocol, but its not super difficult either. Over time I'm sure I will be coming up with some of these and Doc will be selling them. But don't expect any of these right away.

One other thing, it comes with firmware in a socketed chip, so that when we come up with a firmware change Doc can send out new chips in the mail so you can get easily add new features.  But with the above mentioned expansion protocol you won't need to change the firmware just to add a new module.

I hope that gives some idea of what is going to be in there.

John S.

John Swenson
DAC designer
Well Tempered Record player -> Seduction
Moded Squeezebox->DIY DAC
BDT preamp->813 monster SE amp
DIY "Bazooka" Lowther speakers


Offline nullspace

  • Jr. Member
  • **
    • Posts: 12
Reply #52 on: December 14, 2011, 10:36:33 AM
Thanks for the update, John. I'm really looking forward to putting together whatever kit you and Dan come up with.

RE: adaptive vs. asynchronous... I know I'd prefer a well-done adaptive board over a copy & paste of some chip manufacturer's asynrchronous development layout.

Regards,
John

John Bauman


Offline Grainger49

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 7175
Reply #53 on: December 14, 2011, 10:55:55 AM
My thanks to John for weighing in.  If I understood all of it that would be great but I get the gist.

The real cookie there is the expansion slot.



Offline Jim R.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 2194
  • Blind Bottlehead
Reply #54 on: December 22, 2011, 04:38:33 AM
John S,

Thanks much for the update and more details.  Glad the toslink is in there too and as far as I can see, the new toshiba toslink receiver and trnsmitter chips are 24/192, but there aren't all that many 24/192 sources on the market yet -- the hiface Evo is one though.

I really am impressed with the clocking subsystem -- as you said, not seen very often, but really does level the playing field between adaptive and async.

Anyway, my listen to the prototype at RMAF was very, very promising, so I'll be having my eyes on this one for sure.

-- Jim


Jim Rebman -- recovering audiophile

Equitech balanced power; uRendu, USB processor -> Musette DAC -> 5670 tube buffer -> Finale Audio F138 FFX -> Cain and Cain Abbys near-field).

s.e.x. 2.1 under construction.  Want list: Stereomour II

All ICs homemade (speaker and power next)


Offline earwaxxer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 1336
Reply #55 on: December 22, 2011, 03:07:19 PM
John S,

Thanks for the tech info on clocking and USB etc. It add to the concepts I am trying to build in my head about how all this stuff works! I was wondering if you could explain the issues/advantages etc. with a ethernet protocol. I know its complex and needs custom software etc. Any info would help. -- Eric

Eric
Emotiva XPA-2, Magnepan MMG (mod), Quickie (mod), JRiver, Wyrd4sound uLink, Schiit Gungnir, JPS Digital power cord, MIT power cord, JPS Labs ultraconductor wire throughout, HSU sub. powered by Crown.


Offline John Swenson

  • Full Member
  • ***
    • Posts: 114
Reply #56 on: December 25, 2011, 09:47:28 PM
Hi Eric,
the subject is quite large and complex, I could easily write a couple books about it, but I'll try and put it all together in a nutshell here.

To make all the rest make sense you have to have SOME understanding of jitter, its impossible to understand why different implementations may or may not be better without some understanding of what it is. Jitter is the variation in timing of samples applied to a DAC chip, this is what matters. The whole concept of digital audio is that "samples" (numbers that represent the musical signal value at a precise point in time) are applied to a DAC chip at very precise times. (a CD applies these samples at 44100 times per second). If anything causes the time between samples to change even slightly, the waveform at the output of the DAC is distorted. Human hearing seems to be very sensitive to some forms of these timing deviations.

A few things about jitter, number one, it is ALWAYS there, no matter what some marketing departments tell you, it is impossible to produce a zero jitter signal. You can get it pretty small, but its always there. Different circuits produce different amounts and types of jitter. Even the same circuits can produce radically differening amounts of jitter with different amounts of noise on the power and ground lines supplying the circuit.

There is a major tradeoff here, many of the methods used to decrease jitter actually wind up producing significant amounts of ground plane noise, which winds up producing more jitter than you thought you were getting rid of in the first place. This is not understood by a lot of designers today, thier attempts at reducing jitter actually make things worse.

Now on to some specifics. First lets talk about S/PDIF. This is a class of protocols in which the source is "in control". The rate at which the data comes over the wire is completely determined by the source. The DAC has to somehow "lock on" to the data stream and produce a signal going to its DAC chips based on the rate at which data is coming over the wire. This has traditionally been difficult to do with very low jitter. This is traditionally been done with a device called a Phase Locked Loop (PLL). A PLL locks on to the input data stream and produces it own "clock" which tracks the input signal. Unfortunately the jitter from a PLL can have anywhere from 2 - 200 times as much jitter than a good fixed frequency clock (such as a crystal oscillator). How good that PLL does is VERY dependant on the signal feeding it, ie the transport. In the early days many transports were not very good and the PLLs in the DACs did a very poor job of extracting a clock from these signals. This gave rise to the "reclocking boxes". These contained a a much better PLL (and expensive) PLL which did a much better job of extracting a clock from the source and feeding it to the DAC, which now had a better signal to start from. Transports have gotten better and DAC receivers have gotten better, so outboard PLLs are less effective than they used to be.

So this brings up the first thing people realized, trying to track something else will almost always have more jitter than if the DAC generates its own clock. Thus was born various methods to have the source follow the DAC. Some companies put the clock in the DAC and fed it to the transport. This should completely fix the problem, but it didn't. Other "computer" protocols were tried such as asynchronous USB and ethernet protocols. Both these allow the low jitter clock to be in the DAC, and the source follows the DAC. But non of these have been completely successful, in that ALL of them still are susceptible to what is going on in the source. The problem is that most of the designers are ignoring the fact that that these "feed forward" systems generate more noise in the DAC power supply and ground plane, which increases the jitter of the local clock.

I'm a very big fan of the Squeezebox system, what drew me to it in the first place was the architecture, a local low jitter clock that fed the DACs and a system which grabbed data from a server when needed rather than a server which shoved data out when it wanted to. Unfortunately the ethernet system requires a local computer (ALL ethernet streamers have a computer built in) , and complex software, which generates a ton of noise on the PS and ground planes which compromises the theoretical extremely good jitter performance. Unfortunately none of the companies making ethernet streamers have realized this and designed their systems with this in mind. I personally think ethernet streamers are a very good way to go, but there is a lot of work to fully realize the potential.

Asynch USB should be a good compromise, the protocol is much simpler than ethernet protocols, so properly using them should generate much less noise, and it still offers a way for source to be slaved to the DAC. But it STILL does generate some noise from implementing the protocol which will generate noise on the ground plane. Designers have been almost ignoring this aspect. A few have made some attempts at mitigating this, but NOBODY as really come close to addressing this fully.

So why have I chosen the path I'm taking with this DAC? Its a good compromise. S/PDIF is very common, almost every device that deals with digital audio supports S/PDIF, async USB and ethernet audio are a much smaller space, I wanted to produce a DAC that would be useful to a very broad range of people and circumstances. The only problem was coming up with a way to implement it that would be as good as other methods. I think I have achieved that.

So for people that don't have an S/PDIF output but do have a USB jack, I added a USB input which should be quite good. If you want to go ethernet streaming you can get a squeezebox Touch and plug it into this DAC, no need for a very expensive ethernet streamer made by an audiophile company.

I hope that sheds a little light onto this rather large mess that is digital audio.

John S.

John Swenson
DAC designer
Well Tempered Record player -> Seduction
Moded Squeezebox->DIY DAC
BDT preamp->813 monster SE amp
DIY "Bazooka" Lowther speakers


Offline earwaxxer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 1336
Reply #57 on: December 26, 2011, 02:37:12 PM
Thanks John! - It does help piece the mess together a bit. It seems SPDIF was played as the "enemy" in the early USB days, to get audiophiles to consider the emerging technology. I never quite bought it, and now SPDIF does seem to have come back into acceptance when utilized intelligently with modern techniques. Thanks for the info! - Eric

Eric
Emotiva XPA-2, Magnepan MMG (mod), Quickie (mod), JRiver, Wyrd4sound uLink, Schiit Gungnir, JPS Digital power cord, MIT power cord, JPS Labs ultraconductor wire throughout, HSU sub. powered by Crown.


Offline tdogzthmn

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
    • Posts: 281
  • Industrial Designer
Reply #58 on: December 27, 2011, 07:08:46 PM
John, always great to hear about the process of building the DAC which is my favorite part of designing and building things.  Although I have little technical knowledge about the inner workings of electronics I like most on this site enjoy learning what goes into the product development stage.  In reading about the various platforms and the various trade off between them I cant help but think that S/PDIF will only continue to shrink as a digital platform where others such as toslink, usb, and ethernet will proliferate.  If the computer is gaining popularity as the predominate source for the audio data which I see as being true then I would look at what is the most common data transfer protocols.  If I were to pick three I would say USB, Ethernet and Wifi are by far the most common methods to move data between devices.  When was the last time you saw a computer built by HP, Dell, or Apple with a S/PDIF connection sticking out the back? 

From what I gathered from reading your posts is that S/PDIF is able to most easily deliver the packets of data between the computer and DAC with a high degree of precision and fewer trade offs which might degrade the over all sonic integrity.  What I am wanting to know is how difficult is it to get the least amount of noise on a growing audio transfer protocol like USB?  Think about computers ten years from now and how the audio market will shift.  The focus of the DAC should be how easily can I get the best sound of my digital files and into my amazing sounding Bottlehead product.  My Ideal situation would be a wireless DAC that can serve my setup located in another room.  Most people dont want to stick their computer right next to all their Hifi gear, they just want it to store their audio tracks in a digital format.  Now that I have an awesome hi-rez music library I want to be able to hear it on my speaker rig in the living room AND my headphone system in the bedroom.  The squeeze box which you talk about is the closest product I have seen which does what I am describing.  It too has the ability to connect to my wireless home network and really leverage the benefits of computer audio which is holding an enormous music library on a small magnetic disk and accessible from anywhere on the planet. 

I'm sure developing a decent wireless system is much more complex and expensive to develop than a simpler method like USB or S/PDIF but looking at this with an eye on the future of where things are headed and what would be the most valuable features to have I don't see wireless technology declining.  Using an open source platform like Arduino or ZigBee might yeild something promising and you will end up leapfrogging the competition.  Maybe this can all be the foundation of the Bottlehead DAC2?

Regards,

Tom



Offline earwaxxer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 1336
Reply #59 on: December 28, 2011, 07:20:17 AM
Hi Tom - my two cents worth of experience with the squeezebox Transporter using wifi vs. wired ethernet. This has been discussed ad-nausium on the squeezbox forums with heated discussion on the logical conclusion that there should be no sonic difference between wifi and wired ethernet. Well, there is. The Transporter sounds better over ethernet, not by a small amount. Steve alluded to the noise in these applications, and I think that is the reason. The added noise from the radio etc impacts the sound. On the Transporter with ethernet engaged the radio is off. The plot thickens!

Eric
Emotiva XPA-2, Magnepan MMG (mod), Quickie (mod), JRiver, Wyrd4sound uLink, Schiit Gungnir, JPS Digital power cord, MIT power cord, JPS Labs ultraconductor wire throughout, HSU sub. powered by Crown.