water heater

Doc B. · 6931

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Offline Doc B.

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on: February 18, 2012, 06:19:28 PM
I have to brag a bit. Amongst the myriad projects that need to be refurbished in our 1941 vintage house is the water system. We had a crappy, shallow well that started pulling sand in the early 80's. At that point we hooked up to our neighbor's well which is something like 1000 feet deep, but full of equally crappy, sulfurous, rusty (but not sandy) Kitsap County water. Reality has set in that we have essentially four adults here now who are vying for shower water every day, and our water heater struggles to keep up. I just found a 2 year old $1000 80 ga. water heater for $100, that I will pick up tomorrow and install with a decent filtration system ahead of it. Which got me thinking about the old one that we have been demanding more than it can give for the past 25 years. A long bout of googling turned up that our GE Deluxe Automatic electric water heater is from about 1951.

Amazing.

Dan "Doc B." Schmalle
President For Life
Bottlehead Corp.


Offline Laudanum

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Reply #1 on: February 19, 2012, 12:35:26 AM
That is amazing.  I doubt that the 50 gallon GE I put in 3 years ago will make a total of 10 years ... on city water.  Of course it's Florida and I dont have a softener.   Still, I doubt it would make it much past 10 or 15 years at best.   The one it replaced kept burning up the thermostat every couple of years until I removed the insulating "blanket". 

Desmond G.


Offline RayP

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Reply #2 on: February 19, 2012, 01:51:27 AM
So there is no new technology in amplifiers being announced here. Before I clicked on the link I momentarily wondered if you could put very hot water or stream through a thin tube that would drive off sufficient electrons.

Which brought up another thought. Have there ever been water cooled tube amps?

ray

Ray Perry


Offline Noskipallwd

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Reply #3 on: February 19, 2012, 02:20:48 AM
Water cooled tube amp? For some strange reason that phrase gives me flashbacks to my college days. Doc, I installed a tankless water heater this year, very happy with it, our gas bill went down considerably. My neighbor installed one but he isn't saving anything. They have kids, ( I don't), the kids started taking hour long showers because they never run out of hot water. I think it has actually cost them more.

Cheers,
Shawn

Shawn Prigmore


Offline Jim R.

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Reply #4 on: February 19, 2012, 04:12:21 AM
Ray P. -- yes, I've seen at least one statically water cooled tube amp.  It was at RMAF at least a couple of times, but I don't recall the  company who made it, but it was a pair of single-ended 305 transmitter tubes in what looked like an aquarium on top of the amp.  Not cheap, pretty amazing sound as I recall, but sort of gave me the willies thinking about how it could fail

Lots of radio transmitters are water cooled too.

When I worked at the Princeton Plasma Physics labe, we had some custom made 350 pound pentodes that were used for voltage regulators/modulators for 120kv, 100A continous DC power supplies and they had integral water cooling and then sat in a fiberglass tank of SF6 for dielectric.

-- Jim


Jim Rebman -- recovering audiophile

Equitech balanced power; uRendu, USB processor -> Musette DAC -> 5670 tube buffer -> Finale Audio F138 FFX -> Cain and Cain Abbys near-field).

s.e.x. 2.1 under construction.  Want list: Stereomour II

All ICs homemade (speaker and power next)


Offline Grainger49

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Reply #5 on: February 19, 2012, 05:39:45 AM
Water cooled tube amp?  .  .  . 

Cheers,
Shawn

I worked on a welder at Alcoa with  a water cooled tube rectifier.  You aren't making things up.



Offline ironbut

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Reply #6 on: February 19, 2012, 07:34:43 AM
Wow, I guess I'm new to the game of home ownership. I'm also used to the mineral laced water here in the Bay Area but that's amazing that a water heater could last that long!
Everybody I've talked to around here expects to replace theirs every 10 years or so.

A little closer to stuff I do know about,..

http://vongaylordaudio.com/beta/unisea/

I think I first saw their fluid cooled amps back at the Stereophile show in the mid 90's.

steve koto


Offline Grainger49

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Reply #7 on: February 19, 2012, 07:55:20 AM
Dan,

With the minerals in the water and the long years of service how much of the 50 gallons was used up by sediments?

That is quite a score on the new tank. 



Offline Doc B.

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Reply #8 on: February 19, 2012, 09:19:40 AM
Yeah, that's what I wonder. It has been drained a few times and surprisingly little goo came out, just rusty water. But I have a hunch the capacity might have shrunk to more like 30 gallons as the encrustation has built up. Just got back from picking up the new/used heater. Looks to be pretty young. Now I gotta figure out a whole lot of reconfiguring of the plumbing that should have been done years ago. We still have the pressure tank from the old well on the water line, pipes are all galvanized, need to put in proper ground rods for electrical (which I think was grounded to the water pipes) and double check electrical bonding of all inlets and outlets, etc., etc. Then get and install water softener, then install water heater, then find new washer and dishwasher, as everything is at least 25 years old. Gonna tackle it a piece at a time.

Dan "Doc B." Schmalle
President For Life
Bottlehead Corp.


Offline John Roman

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Reply #9 on: February 20, 2012, 06:13:12 AM
hello doc,
Saw your post and thought I'd through my 2 cents in as I used to do this kind of work. Galvanized pipe that old is surely restricting flow and I'm sure you realize now is the time for a copper re-pipe. If you do it a piece at a time everything after the filter should be copper and any copper to galvanized connection should be separated by a dielectric union or a 6" length of brass pipe. Both do a decent job of controlling  electrolysis, although my experience suggests the brass pipe is more effective. A lot of unions are cheap plated steel and can be difficult to install properly. I suspect you will be having this work done by a contractor, have them check the supply pipe from the well and replace any gate valves with ball valves. Good luck with your project!
John

Regards,
John
Extended Foreplay 3 / 300B Paramount's / BassZilla open baffle/ Music Streamer 2 / Lenovo Y560-Win7-JRMC & JPlay


Offline Doc B.

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Reply #10 on: February 20, 2012, 06:59:44 AM
Wow, thanks John! I plan at this point to do most of the work myself.  Luckily the flow seems really good out of all of the faucets (like "stand back!") and static pressure is right at 70 psi. Tested the water last night and it looks quite good, fairly soft, slightly basic, fairly high alkalinity, no iron, copper,nitrates or chlorine. It appears that the problems we are having are related almost entirely to rust bacteria.

I didn't know about using 6" brass pipe as a sub for the dielectric union, that's a great help. I really didn't want to hassle with replacing galvanized pipe with galvanized pipe, but I'm concerned that some of our our old wiring might be grounded to the plumbing and I'd like to play it safe in terms of electrical bonding. We have neat old textured plaster over lath walls in the house and really don't want to tear them up to replace all of the pipes. But I can certainly redo all the exposed piping from the cold water inlet to the heater and out of the heater with copper. My neighbor who owns the water company we are supplied by reconnected us from our crappy well to his water supply 30 years ago. Left the pressure tank in the system ( I suspect that and the old heater are a veritable metropolis of rust bacteria), failed to bond the galvanized inlet pipes on either side of a plastic union, left unsupported runs of over 10 feet long, water filter hanging sideways, etc, etc. Now that I have studied the code I can say that I wish he had too!

As an aside I just installed one of those dual flush thingies in one of our toilets. Interesting gadget, one button flushes only part way for #1 and there is a second button for launching #2 with added vigor. The #1 setting is a little hit and miss, but it does seem like it should save water. Also took the straightforward approach to conservation and put a 1 gal jug of water in the tank.


Dan "Doc B." Schmalle
President For Life
Bottlehead Corp.


Offline mchurch

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Reply #11 on: February 20, 2012, 09:36:45 AM
Doc;

If you have textured plaster you might want to check for asbestos before you do any opening or removing. A lot of plasters from that time had asbestos in the mix. I don't know the building codes for the US but up here most contractors would not touch the job without asbestos testing because they could not get a building permit without the testing. If it is present then they have have it professionally removed before starting any work.



Cheers;


Mike




Offline Grainger49

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Reply #12 on: February 20, 2012, 10:29:29 AM
Mike is right except that if it is not friable it poses no danger.  That is why opening it up poses the problem.

And then Dan probably already knows that.



Offline Doc B.

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Reply #13 on: February 20, 2012, 10:45:57 AM
Thanks guys, as I said I don't plan to take any pipes out of the plastered walls. The water heater and supply line entry are in the basement and exposed, so I plan to just redo some of that and worry about the pipes past the water heater later.

Dan "Doc B." Schmalle
President For Life
Bottlehead Corp.


Offline Chris

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Reply #14 on: February 20, 2012, 09:06:12 PM
All the "rust bacteria" and hardened sediment is probably what is holding the thing together after all these years... :)