Cain and Cain Abby

[tsingle999]

I swapped out the original drivers for the nearfield drivers that i got from planet 10 enabled. They look cool and give the speakers a tottally different sound. Moved the soundstage back. They are less sensitive too which i notice with my sr45. Anyone else try other drivers in he Abby?

[Clark B.]

Nice!  The Abby's are good cabinets that do generally good things with many 6"er's

I've tried -

- FE166ES-R - SUWEET sound!  These were my favorite.  I am glad Terry nudged me to get a set back when they were available.
- FE166E - Original Cain and Cain sound and very nicely balanced overall.  Definitely needs some room treatment to take care of a few small (and minor) shouts between 2-4khz
- FE166En - I like them just a little better than the 166E - Just a tad though, and its hard to say exactly how as the drivers were in different points in their breakin
- FE163EN-S (not in Abby's, but did like them alot.  These were not a total improvement over the 166ES-R's to my ears, so I sold them)
- FF165K - with both the rear mounted t96A and also a front firing t90A.  This was very nice, but I found out ultimately that I'd rather have a single driver do the whole thing.
- Old Sigmas - these were great!  Little known, that the Abby was originally designed around them.  They were made in Japan IIRC (?)
- New Sigmas - great bass drivers, nasty up top (IMO)  Just some sort of Zing in the upper treble range.
- FE168ES - these are great drivers, very hard to find though.  They are the New sigmas with more resolution and no treble nastiness (and a double magnet), though they do need some help up top.

I have not heard the 165WK, but I am sure they are quite decent - definitely a step up from the old 165k. 

Though the size isn't the same, I did hear the FF85Wk and while they did nice things down low, they had a pretty obvious Zing in the upper treble that turned my ears off.  But the same was true of the old FF85k for me as well.  Too much 16khz for my taste.  Must be the metal dome.  I know... you can probably correct it out, but I am a purist about those things in general, and I prefer a little softer treble in favor of a little too much. 

My personal set of Noogi's got FE87's, 87e's, 85k's.  I preferred the 83E's, but the bass didn't work right in the Noogi cabinet, so I started making traditional bass reflexes for them... this was the beginning of the Orcas.  As you might imagine, Both the Abby's and the Noogi's served as substantial inspiration for the little Orcas we now make.  I tried to get a similarly warm sound of the Abby's into a much smaller physical package than even the Noogi's, trading high volumes for sweeter treble, better lower midrange body, and better treble dispersion.

Some odd drivers I've tried in the Abbys -
-Lowther DX2 - no bass, really forward... not the right cabinet at all.  They worked better in double horns.
-Dayton PS220's, which work good in the bass, but have nasty treble that needs correcting (IMO)

My old personal set of Abby's are now in use within the business of a friend of mine - Mace Mead Works, in Dayton Washington.  They are now outfitted (and EQed) for Dayton PS220's.  They have no bases installed on the bottoms, (vent straight out), and are hung upside down from the ceiling.  They serve as vocal PA in Reggie Mace's performance venue.  He calls these speakers the "Muffrockets" IIRC.  http://macemeadworks.com/

Well, I figured I may as well share my experiences on this front.  The Abby's are out of production now but there are many owners looking at some of the newer Fostex drivers so I figured I may as well weigh in on Terry's behalf.

Cheers!

-Clark

[tsingle999]

Thanks for the response Clark! I had bought the Abbys used. When i removed the driver i found it was the newer FE166En. I definitely liked it. These 165wk are really nice though. Completely different presentation - more laid back. Seems to work better in my small apartment. The low bass is WEIGHTY. I ended up ditching my sub after i installed the grid chokes. I do have t90a firing upwards from the bass to give some air. I never liked them forward firing with other speakers i used. I need to experiment more with these new drivers... My initial impression after switching out the drivers is the t90a's were too noticeable.
The good news is i scored a pair of FE166ES-R on the asylum! I had a hard time deciding but i am def excited now that i see your comments about it!
I listen to the Abbys at home and the Orcas at work. I will post about the Orcas on the other thread...

[Clark B.]

Yeah, Taran, those ES-R's were a serious score.  My pair has been played in for thousands of hours under so many different circumstances.  I don't have them in cabinets anymore, but this summer I'll put them back into my Thrashers so I can throw dance parties again.  At my 5 year college reunion last year I had the ES-R's in some of my Thrashers, powered by a Hafler DH200, and we eventually had to elevate the speakers up on tables to keep the treble from getting soaked up by all the bodies of the ~250 person dance party that suddenly formed in the vacation rental house me and my buddies rented for the weekend.  The dancing was quite spirited until the VERY wee hours.  I can't believe the cops never came.  We bottomed the drivers out several times and just backed off the volume a little bit and kept on thrashing.  No bass boost, no EQ.  They held up strong through this torture test and still sounded great.  A real testament to the reliability of Fostex Drivers.  This dance party was one of the most entertaining "HiFi" experiences I've ever had, to be sure - even though the speaker enclosures looked like crap, everyone could tell that something was pretty special about those drivers.  I hope the sprinkle of cobalt in those magnets gives mysterious powers to any surprise babies that were conceived that night.

[tsingle999]

Sorry i missed the dancing! Um the cobalt was a consideration as the amps gave cobalt in the trannies and the grid chokes....just need cobalt b7 in the preamp:)

[Jim R.]

Terran,

Oh, nice score on the esr's!  The only thing I did to my drivers were some wood phase plugs -- did very nice things with the original 166e drivers.  Put a bit of stuffing in the bottom too.

Probably the only speakers I truly regret selling.

I have to wonder what benefit these would see from a driver mounting scheme like the Orcas use?

BTW, last time I looked there was a guy on audiocircle selling a pair of 163en drivers for $360.

-- Jim

[Hank Murrow]

Hey Tsingle;

If you score a pair of Mikey's B7 cobalts, you will be very fortunate. My BH Customs 'sort-of' Soul Sister runs with them as outputs and I love them even after comparing them with the trannyless BeePre at BHeadquarters last Friday. They drive my 2A3 amp with TFA 2004 Jr.(with M4 and cobalt slices), creating a fine balance of tone to drive the Blumenstein system. Just my ears...... but hey! Even Dan liked this linestage that PB built, of course the whole chain is Bottlehead parafeed design, so there's a strong family resemblance.

Cheers, Hank in Eugene

[4krow]

I have always thought that the C&C speakers were a great looking product. I do wonder though, what are they considered to be as far as design? Almost reminds me of a horn, but I know it's not. At least they aren't just another box speaker, ho-humm

[Paul Joppa]

Greg-

Nomenclature is pretty vague in this area; the only people actually interested are not into precise terminology, they mostly want to build stuff an listen to it! the names that are used usually correspond to such simplifications as can easily be mathematically modeled, but reality has a way of allowing designs that are in between the models.

Nevertheless, I'd call an Abby a "tapped and tapered mass-loaded transmission line":

tapped meaning the driver is not at either end of the line, rather somewhere in between.

tapered meaning the line is not a constant cross-section. In this case the ares varies linearly from near zero at the top. This is much like an oboe, as opposed to a clarinet - the overtone structure is different between them.

mass-loaded has two meanings, both of which are present in the Abby. First, the cabinet is ported at the bottom; the port acts as a mass load (the slug of air in the port and around its openings). This is the way a reflex enclosure works as well. The second meaning is that the cabinet, especially around the speaker itself, is heavy enough to reduce the motion of the cabinet parts relative to the speaker cone - F=m*a according to the physicists.

[Doc B.]

- F=m*a according to the physicists.

Which we used to pronouce "fuh-mah", because it was so often the equation needed to get over some hurdle in the problem on the chalkboard.

[4krow]

Once again, your answer is exactly what I was asking. Thanks. I really like the idea that the taper excludes parallel panels, at least for the most part. It is also interesting that there is more than one function of common speaker design being used here. I did not realize that there was a port at the bottom of the speaker, helping to load the driver. Also, i was unaware of the 'tapped' transmission line. These are things that I would have enjoyed so much had I found my way into design years ago. I stab in the dark most of the time, but occasionally hit a target. It is then that this hobby inspires me to keep on going. 40 years plus at this point.

[Clark B.]

A new chapter in the Cain and Cain saga:

http://blumensteinaudio.com/cain-cain/

We've got a bunch of cabinets for sale.

[Doc B.]

A really sweet remembrance, Clarko. That photo of everyone on the front porch was taken the day we first met.

[Clark B.]

For sure, Doc!  That was a really fun party.  Can't wait to keep throwing more parties with you once the weather clears up.


I've updated the listings for the Cain and Cains to show real prices.  There was some confusion as to whether or not I was using the old Cain and Cain prices or the newer Lovecraft prices for my "percentages off retail."  I was actually using the old cain and cain prices... so they've come out to be cheaper than alot of people thought!

The new prices are over 50% off Lovecraft retail, and I can guarantee that these speakers are gonna sound better than anything you buy in the used market... I'll be performing my tweaking magic on them via driver mounting, crossover components, wiring, damping, and bracing tricks I've learned over the years (many of which go into the Orca).

http://blumensteinaudio.com/cain-cain-speakers/

And an updated discussion here:

http://blumensteinaudio.com/cain-cain/

[Doc B.]

If I had excess capital I'd buy those double horn Bens - really fun speakers. BTW the Alerion pictured in the product shot is one of the pair that resides in my HT. I think they are some of the prettiest cabs Terry made.