Output Coupling Capacitors

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Offline Paul Birkeland

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Reply #45 on: March 27, 2010, 09:18:16 AM
We use both solid state and tube regulators. The stock Foreplay III is the only kit using a strictly tube regulator. In the rest of the kits with a shunt regulator use a tube as a voltage source for the solid state regulator, and the tube burns off excess current at the same time.

If you wanted to try a purely solid state voltage regulator, one could modify any of the circuits to use a zener string instead of the triode, or possibly make a voltage source with something besides the extra triode.

(We have listened to this and prefer our regulator)

Paul "PB" Birkeland

Bottlehead Grunt & The Repro Man


Offline Paul Joppa

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Reply #46 on: March 27, 2010, 11:42:05 AM
We did build a test buffer, which used 12AT7s or 12AU7s as cathode followers. I chose the cathode follower because that is the circuit most audibly sensitive to power supply performance. The test vehicle had six different shunt regulation schemes - a gas regulator tube, a string of Zeners (bypassed), and four different triode-based regulators, augmented with various bits of silicon. The two best sounding were very similar hybrid regulators using the TL431 or TL1431 chip with a triode in cascode to handle the voltage (the chip is limited to 30v maximum). We chose the simpler of the two.

We did not follow up with optimizations of each candidate - for example, a high-voltage transistor or FET could be used as the cascode device, with a suitable heat sink. We had at that time been working for many years with John Tucker and the late John "Buddha" Camille, and they had done more extensive experiments - this must have been back in the late nineties. They had concluded that FETs just didn't sound as good, though they worked very well on paper and in measurements.

Here's an interesting historical note. Some 15 years ago (before I began designing for Bottlehead) Bottlehead was using paralleled triodes for drivers, 5965s and 6N1Ps mostly. Eventually Bottlehead switched to single sections, finding a bit of smearing (for want of a precise technical term!) in the sound of paralleled triodes. That left a spare triode in each monoblock. As I recall it, I made an idle suggestion to use that triode for a shunt regulator and John Tucker immediately built one. I really did not expect it to be audible, since the driver was already isolated from the power supply by a C4S plate load. I was so astounded when I heard it, I insisted on switching amps (only on channel was regulated) and then turned the amps over on the floor to trace the circuits for the next 15 minutes. I really suspected Tucker of pulling a fast one!

Anyhow, that's how we came to use the triode as the heat- and voltage-dissipating element. There has never seemed to be sufficient reason to try to develop a different approach, beyond that initial test device to confirm we weren't missing something obvious.

Paul Joppa


Offline Paul Birkeland

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Reply #47 on: March 27, 2010, 11:57:26 AM
I messed around a bit with fets and the current Bottlehead regulator scheme.  I have found that keeping the fets cool is far more difficult than letting a triode cool itself.  Heck, when you want to burn off 5-8 watts or so at high voltage, you end up spending quite a bit of money and space on heatsinks where a little 9 pin tube would suffice. 

Paul "PB" Birkeland

Bottlehead Grunt & The Repro Man


Offline Jim R.

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Reply #48 on: March 27, 2010, 12:22:47 PM
PJ,

Thanks for the background info.  I love hearing these historical anecdotes laden with great and useful technical findings and ideas!

-- Jim

Jim Rebman -- recovering audiophile

Equitech balanced power; uRendu, USB processor -> Musette DAC -> 5670 tube buffer -> Finale Audio F138 FFX -> Cain and Cain Abbys near-field).

s.e.x. 2.1 under construction.  Want list: Stereomour II

All ICs homemade (speaker and power next)


Offline VoltSecond

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Reply #49 on: March 27, 2010, 02:58:29 PM
For the truly enthusiastic, are you aware of the CDE military-quality caps? Electrolytic caps, 125 degrees C, stainless steel cases, 100 year lifetime, flat pack 0.5" by 1.5" by 1.75" for example. "Not your fathers's electrolytic."

Spec sheet at
http://www.cde.com/catalogs/MLS.pdf

I guy I worked with along time ago used CDE flat packs told me "don't use those flatpack capacitors. . ."  I wonder if it has anything to do with the "lasagna battery" effect.



Offline Jim R.

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Reply #50 on: March 27, 2010, 04:49:57 PM
Any guesses on how a pair of electrolytics in series (to increase voltage rating) would sound?  I' ve never done this for a coupling capacitor and wonder if it would have a detrimental effect on the sound?

-- Jim

Jim Rebman -- recovering audiophile

Equitech balanced power; uRendu, USB processor -> Musette DAC -> 5670 tube buffer -> Finale Audio F138 FFX -> Cain and Cain Abbys near-field).

s.e.x. 2.1 under construction.  Want list: Stereomour II

All ICs homemade (speaker and power next)


Offline Paul Birkeland

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Reply #51 on: March 27, 2010, 06:49:30 PM
Any guesses on how a pair of electrolytics in series (to increase voltage rating) would sound?  I' ve never done this for a coupling capacitor and wonder if it would have a detrimental effect on the sound?

-- Jim

Well, ideally you would want resistors in series with these caps to keep the voltage across each of them balanced.  This, of course, defeats the purpose of DC blocking unless you use very, very high values (to create a voltage divider that puts a few mV of DC out at the output).  Putting the caps in series also halves the capacitance, which isn't super helpful in this case.  Did you have a specific cap in mind?

Paul "PB" Birkeland

Bottlehead Grunt & The Repro Man


Offline Jim R.

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Reply #52 on: March 28, 2010, 12:47:13 AM
PB,

Yes, I guess the series resistors would defeat the DC blocking, and hence why I've never used them this way :-).  Ron Welborne has a bunch of surplus 220 uF 100v Elna Cerafines, and that's the only reason I asked, in case I could put them to use somehow in this amp.

-- Jim

Jim Rebman -- recovering audiophile

Equitech balanced power; uRendu, USB processor -> Musette DAC -> 5670 tube buffer -> Finale Audio F138 FFX -> Cain and Cain Abbys near-field).

s.e.x. 2.1 under construction.  Want list: Stereomour II

All ICs homemade (speaker and power next)


Offline Natural Sound

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Reply #53 on: March 28, 2010, 02:54:00 PM
Quote from: Caucasian Blackplate
You will, undoubtedly, have to bend the leads of the caps around their bodies a bit to get them to fit, but it should work fine.

Quote from: Caucasian Blackplate
Incidentally, there is probably just enough room to squeeze a giant Solen cap between the 6-lug terminal strips that flank the power transformer.  I may need to trade in my ugly prototype for a fresh kit when the plates arrive...

Makes me wonder why "crack" wasn't built on the new standard 8 X 10 chassis plate instead of reverting back to the old 6 X 10 format. The experimental aspect of the amp tend to become narrowed when you have to shoehorn components into the box.



Offline Dr. Toobz

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Reply #54 on: March 28, 2010, 04:00:09 PM
Quote from: Caucasian Blackplate
You will, undoubtedly, have to bend the leads of the caps around their bodies a bit to get them to fit, but it should work fine.

Quote from: Caucasian Blackplate
Incidentally, there is probably just enough room to squeeze a giant Solen cap between the 6-lug terminal strips that flank the power transformer.  I may need to trade in my ugly prototype for a fresh kit when the plates arrive...

Makes me wonder why "crack" wasn't built on the new standard 8 X 10 chassis plate instead of reverting back to the old 6 X 10 format. The experimental aspect of the amp tend to become narrowed when you have to shoehorn components into the box.


I would imagine, among other things, that the larger chassis plate and wooden enclosure would have required a little higher price point than $199, which is amazing for this type of amp.



Offline Paul Birkeland

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Reply #55 on: March 28, 2010, 09:42:33 PM

Makes me wonder why "crack" wasn't built on the new standard 8 X 10 chassis plate instead of reverting back to the old 6 X 10 format. The experimental aspect of the amp tend to become narrowed when you have to shoehorn components into the box.


The same question could be asked about the SEX amp and the new Stereomour chassis, which is quite a bit bigger than the 8x10.  Ultimately it boils down to costs and practicality of upgrades in combination with what must fit.  Ultimately the fun part of DIY is figuring out how to fit all the desired mods in the space provided.

Paul "PB" Birkeland

Bottlehead Grunt & The Repro Man


Offline Grainger49

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Reply #56 on: March 29, 2010, 12:24:04 AM
 .  .  .    Makes me wonder why "crack" wasn't built on the new standard 8 X 10 chassis plate instead of reverting back to the old 6 X 10 format. The experimental aspect of the amp tend to become narrowed when you have to shoehorn components into the box.

Edited in Red:

There is an alternate way to get more room.  Custom make a deeper base, simple enough Paully and I have done it.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2010, 07:48:34 AM by Grainger49 »



Offline dmannnnn

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Reply #57 on: June 12, 2010, 10:17:10 PM
I did  a search on caps and came up with this.

http://www.newark.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?SKU=13M4422&CMP=AFC-GB100000001

I don't know if these would be OK.   I'm sure someone else can comment on the specs.   I like my crack the way it is for now.

Harmon Kardon T60 - Hagerman Bugle - Cal Audio Labs CL15
ForePlayIII - Paramount 300B's
Klipsch RF-7/Altec Model 14/Magnepan MG12


Offline Grainger49

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Reply #58 on: June 13, 2010, 05:25:54 AM
I would try those.  From the belly picture on the products page the stock output caps look tiny.  You might lift one of the leads on both caps and clip the "Oilers" in just to see if they are a good flavor.  That way you are not too far from the stock configuration if they don't suit you.



Offline dmannnnn

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Reply #59 on: June 13, 2010, 01:10:39 PM
Metalized Polypropelene.  According to the datasheet 2.75in by 4.75in.

Harmon Kardon T60 - Hagerman Bugle - Cal Audio Labs CL15
ForePlayIII - Paramount 300B's
Klipsch RF-7/Altec Model 14/Magnepan MG12