Mcandmars ramblings \ build thread...

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Offline mcandmar

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Reply #120 on: July 17, 2015, 04:20:30 PM
To infinity and beyond!

Although this isn’t specifically related to the S.E.X. amp i thought it worth sharing all the same.  For those unfamiliar with LDR attenuators they use optical couplers (specifically light dependent optocouplers) as voltage controlled variable resistors to mimic the function of a potentiometer.  In theory they are more transparent and have a lower noise floor than either a carbon based pot, or resistor based stepped attenuator. Curious yet?  ...me too ;)

The specific type of optocouplers used are Silonex NSL-32SR2 which have an unfortunate property in that they vary hugely in their response from sample to sample.  They are so horribly matched you have to buy at least two dozen of them and painstakingly measure each one with a fixed current to find a couple of matched pairs.  In an ideal world you want four matched, but you can make do with two sets of matched pairs.  Most resistors have a tolerance of 1% to 5%, these have a tolerance more like 50%, but once you find a set that measure the same your set.  They don’t have to be exactly the same as the final balance between them can be balanced out with trim pots, but the closer the match the better.

Parts required:
-x4 NSL-32SR2
-x4 100ohm  resistors (current limiters to LDR’s)   
-x2 1k trimpots (to balance left/right channels)
-x1 100k linear volume pot (adjusts voltage to LDR’s)

And that’s it.  Only other catch is you need a quiet 5v DC supply for them, a simple 7805 or LM317 voltage regulator is perfectly adequate. The current draw of the entire circuit is very small, under 100ma so you can get away with tapping into a 6.3v ac winding and rectify into DC which will give you ~7-8v to feed into your voltage regulator for a clean 5V DC output.

Once you have recovered from spending hours slaving away at a breadboard with a multimeter matching sets you then have to assemble the circuit and do one final balance with the trim pots to get each channels response exactly the same.  I almost forgot to mention the second catch, the resistance values vary wildly with temperature so they need to be running for about half an hour before they settle down.  Just holding one of the LDR’s between your fingers will change its resistance enough for the volume change to be audible within a few seconds. Kind of amusing in some ways, but it does make their suitability for the inside a hot valve amp questionable.

The how does it sound question.  In my test circuit i went from a regular 100k carbon pot so there was a noticeable improvement in clarity, better defined bottom end, and cleaner sounding treble.  I then switched to an eBay ladder attenuator with Dale resistors and honestly, i couldn’t really tell any difference.  Possible the LDR was a bit more detailed in the high end, but its vary hard to say when it takes 5mins with a soldering iron to switch between them so i’ll keep experimenting with it and see how it performs over time.

Overall conclusion.  Huge variation between samples means you have to buy them by the dozen at a time. Hard to find, i could only find them stocked in the US so they cost me more in shipping than for the parts. Pain in the arse to match. Require a dedicated power supply to drive them. Huge drift with temperature. Pain in the arse to match.

On the plus side the entire board is compact, i fitted the entire circuit with AC to DC power supply on a 3” x 1” protoboard.  The actual volume control action is nice as they react slowly to change so any volume adjustment has a fluid gradual change.  A novelty when you’re used to stepped attenuators. Possibly sounds better than a ladder attenuator, jury is still out on that one. Unless i come to the conclusion there is a tangible improvement sonically over stepped attenuators i’m going to say that they are more trouble than they are worth. Nice idea, but a pain in the arse to implement.

M.McCandless


Offline mcandmar

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Reply #121 on: July 18, 2015, 08:25:56 AM
Lightspeed Part II: LDR attenuator vs regular carbon pot

I found this rather surprising, not so much the difference between them, but how much high end gets lost in a cheap carbon pot to begin with. The actual volume levels were slightly different between them but it clearly illustrates the differences all the same.

M.McCandless


Offline Paul Joppa

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Reply #122 on: July 18, 2015, 09:37:50 AM
I am guessing that the difference is due to the lower impedance level of the LDR, interacting with the Miller capacitance of the input tube. The LDR loss is mostly the natural rolloff of the output transformer.

Paul Joppa


Offline mcandmar

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Reply #123 on: July 18, 2015, 10:36:45 AM
Although its not a S.E.X. amp the transformers happen to be a pair of OT-2's, and perform very well to my ears ;)

M.McCandless


Offline Paul Joppa

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Reply #124 on: July 18, 2015, 05:24:58 PM
Oh yeah, I see. So what is the input tube (is it a tube?) and where is the volume control set when doing this measurement? Just curious is all.

Paul Joppa


Offline mcandmar

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Reply #125 on: July 18, 2015, 06:17:50 PM
Its a project i'm working on inspired by Docs old rack mounted headphone amp.  Using two Salas SSHV2 shunt regulators into 6C45 tubes with CCS plate loads.  My original aim was to get a pair of TL-404's, but when i found the OT-2's i snapped them up to get it all up and running.  Its still work in progress, but has surprised me so far with how well they work in the circuit.

Not too sure about the actual volume level, RMAA outputs a 1vrms signal and you set the level so the returning input signal is as close as possible to -1db.  I think i was down to about -3 to -4db to stay below clipping. The test was run with the outputs wired with 1-8 linked / 2-7 linked into a 32ohm load.

I still havent got my head around the math to work out the theoretical coupling cap size, i still don't think its right as something sounds a bit off. From testing with RMAA i think the answer is ~8uf.  5-6uf seemed to give me a large hump at the low end similar to my S.E.X. amp, where as 10uf and 12uf starts to roll off the low end which i wasnt expecting.  More testing needed...  :)

M.McCandless


Offline Paul Joppa

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Reply #126 on: July 18, 2015, 08:44:13 PM
Thanks for the info - this helps.

First off, the 6C45 has a large Miller capacitance, which may explain a sensitivity to high impedances. (In the headphone amp, if I remember right, we used a step-down transformer at the input, 10:600 ohms, followed by 600-ohm attenuators.)

For the parafeed cap, I think in the end you'll have to do listening tests. Without the stabilizing effect of the plate choke's inductance, the LF tuning varies with signal level - specifically, the transformer's inductance. Plus, the core losses become important enough that it's really something between a choke and a resistor. A theoretical analysis is not THAT difficult, but the level dependence means you must compromise between large and small signal performance. So you do listening tests - no other way to answer that question.

Paul Joppa


Offline Paul Birkeland

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Reply #127 on: July 19, 2015, 07:59:43 AM
I would also chime in that a lot of the love for LDR's may come from the high-ish distortion that they produce when used.  This could be a very, very good thing for an overly aggressive solid state amp, but might be a little too much ahead of a SEX amp. 

Paul "PB" Birkeland

Bottlehead Grunt & The Repro Man


Offline mcandmar

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Reply #128 on: July 19, 2015, 10:08:07 AM
Thanks for the info - this helps.

First off, the 6C45 has a large Miller capacitance, which may explain a sensitivity to high impedances.

Turns out the LDRs impedance is in the 15-20k range which may explain the large discrepancy between the 100k pot.  If i got the numbers right i get ~110pf capacitance, so with the 100k pot that would give a roll off at 14.4khz, vs 72khz with a 20k pot.  I'm going to try and find a lower value carbon pot to test with and see if that theory plays out in the real world.


For the parafeed cap, I think in the end you'll have to do listening tests. Without the stabilizing effect of the plate choke's inductance, the LF tuning varies with signal level - specifically, the transformer's inductance. Plus, the core losses become important enough that it's really something between a choke and a resistor. A theoretical analysis is not THAT difficult, but the level dependence means you must compromise between large and small signal performance. So you do listening tests - no other way to answer that question.

Any formulas i have found assume the circuit uses a plate choke, i cant find any equivalent for use with a CCS plate load.  I have deliberately been testing into a 32ohm load to match my headphones, but i'll have a look at the signal level at normal listening volumes and start testing around that point.  I have found a very nice pair of 10uf PIO caps which may bias my decision a tiny bit.

I would also chime in that a lot of the love for LDR's may come from the high-ish distortion that they produce when used.  This could be a very, very good thing for an overly aggressive solid state amp, but might be a little too much ahead of a SEX amp.

And PB chucks a spanner into the works :)     That's not something i have heard mentioned from the evangelists, if anything they claim the opposite.  I'll see if i can measure any difference between it and a ladder attenuator as i have a nice Goldpoint stashed away somewhere.

Cheers all....

M.McCandless


Offline ZacharyP

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Reply #129 on: July 24, 2015, 11:07:30 AM
Anyone experiment with CCS resistors?  I have a couple Vishay 500 ohm s102 bulk foils to try out when I finish my build stock, then add the c4s.  What about the 150k 2w resistor, does this have a big impact on sound?  I have some kiwames in that size, but I'm worried about whether carbon film would be appropriate in this application.

Also just scored a pair of 2uf, 700vdc Solen Silver Sound agm series caps, going to try these after I get used to an all mundorf supreme sound.



Offline mcandmar

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Reply #130 on: July 24, 2015, 11:26:47 AM
The small resistor 499r is what sets the current level so you want something reasonably precise, and preferably something with a low temperature drift.  I usually use DALE RN55 or RN60 in that position.  The larger resistor 150k isn't as important its really just limiting the current through the two LED's.  I believe the ones supplied are Vishay PR series which is what i use myself, if you really want to gild the lily you could use the Vishay CPF series, but that's an unnecessary extravagance IMO. Both are metal film.  I dont think changing either will have any impact in sound, unless you use something unsuitable for the job, which i belive would be carbon comps.
 
As far as i know Carbon Comps like the Kiwames are noisier than metal films when used in DC applications, power supplies etc.  They also have much greater drifts with temperature so personally i wouldn't use them.  Audio path / grid stoppers maybe, but not in a power supply.

M.McCandless


Offline ZacharyP

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Reply #131 on: July 24, 2015, 02:36:19 PM
The small resistor 499r is what sets the current level so you want something reasonably precise, and preferably something with a low temperature drift.  I usually use DALE RN55 or RN60 in that position.  The larger resistor 150k isn't as important its really just limiting the current through the two LED's.  I believe the ones supplied are Vishay PR series which is what i use myself, if you really want to gild the lily you could use the Vishay CPF series, but that's an unnecessary extravagance IMO. Both are metal film.  I dont think changing either will have any impact in sound, unless you use something unsuitable for the job, which i belive would be carbon comps.
 
As far as i know Carbon Comps like the Kiwames are noisier than metal films when used in DC applications, power supplies etc.  They also have much greater drifts with temperature so personally i wouldn't use them.  Audio path / grid stoppers maybe, but not in a power supply.

Summed up the thoughts I had in my head.  Thank you!  The 500r vishays are quite precise as far as I'm aware, but next order I'll grab some Dales.



Offline mcandmar

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Reply #132 on: July 26, 2015, 10:23:28 AM
Finally got around to retesting the LDR vs a few different conventional pots of 100k, 75k, 50k, and 20k and confirmed the large variation i was seeing before was down to the lower impedance of the LDR interacting with the tubes capacitance.  Thanks Paul, i always learn something new from your posts :)

Back to the main issue, LDR vs regular 20k pot, i'm not seeing any appreciable difference in frequency responses or distortion using the equipment i have to hand, though i could convince myself it sounds more detailed to the ear.  Pretty much decided not to use it, i'll stick to a vintage Goldpoint ladder attenuator for this build, but all this does have me curious about the 100k pot in the S.E.X. amp, would it benefit from a 75k or 50k unit instead....hmm

M.McCandless


Offline ZacharyP

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Reply #133 on: July 26, 2015, 10:26:33 PM
Hey mcandmar,

You replaced the 680ohm ps resistors with triad chokes, did you also change the capacitance values of the caps used in the filter?

I was thinking of upgrading the 220uf electrolytics, maybe even increase it in capacitance to 470uf and then switch the 100uf lytics for 50uf ASC x386s blue line oil filled poly caps, and use 10uf asc blue line oil filled poly caps.
http://www.partsconnexion.com/capacitor_film_asc_blueline.html

Anyone have any thoughts, or has there been anyone whose done this in the past?

Specifically would love to hear thoughts from the Bottlehead guys.

PS my Elma switch is 50k.  I think if the input impedance of your potentiometer is causing issues that has as much to do with the impedance of the pot as it does with the source.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2015, 10:30:10 PM by ZacharyP »



Offline mcandmar

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Reply #134 on: July 27, 2015, 03:09:58 AM
I stuck with the original values, but switched to Nichicon KX series just because.

I tried modelling the power supply circuit in PSUDII and for reasons i don't fully understand increasing the values of some of the caps actually made the ripple worse.  Specifically the first two 220uf caps that form the voltage doubler, changing those values had odd side effects, and dramatically increases the current load of the transformer.  It may be as much as quirk with the software more than anything else.

The ripple level at the following 100uf caps seems the most important to me as its directly supplying the output stage of the tube via a choke plate load, while and also feeding into the 8k / 22uf resistor down stream supplying the CCS plate load for the driver stage.  Personally i wouldn't want to lower the value, and i don't think there is much to be gained if anything by playing about with the 22uf cap due to the CCS load.

My main source these days is the Bottlehead DAC, and according to the datasheet for the DAC chip it can happily drive loads down to 1k so i don't see that being an issue.  Now that i am looking for it i went back and looked at all the various amps i know of using 6C45 tubes and almost all of them are using 20k pots.  Now i know why :)

M.McCandless