It had to happen eventually... capacitor upgrade question for the Mainline

Loquah · 79652

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Offline swich401

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What do the caps attached directly to the 6C45 tubes do? Any point replacing them?

I've just ordered some Russian Teflons for the caps on the 12AU7 board and will probably get some Mundorfs or Auricaps to replace the 10uF Dayton. I've read as much as I can and still can't decide between M-Cap Supremes and Auricap high resolution. Any suggestions?

For a slightly more dry and airy presentation, I'd say go with the Auricap XO. The Supremes that I have in now are supposed to have a little more weight in their upper mid-range, and maybe very slightly warmer and smoother sounding presentation.



Offline swich401

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If I wanted to get picky, what way should my capacitors be facing in reference to the inner vs. outer foil? Inner foil towards the output transformers?



Offline Loquah

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What do the caps attached directly to the 6C45 tubes do? Any point replacing them?

These are RF suppression caps that are out of the signal path. Substituting them with something else would potentially make the amplifier sound a lot worse.

Lucky I checked!

Is there any point changing caps other than the 2 pairs of Daytons? I think the only others in the kit are the various power supply caps. Would upgrading to Panasonics or something similar be noticeable in any way?

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Offline Paul Joppa

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If I wanted to get picky, what way should my capacitors be facing in reference to the inner vs. outer foil? Inner foil towards the output transformers?
Yes, that's what usually works best.

Paul Joppa


Offline Paul Birkeland

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Lucky I checked!

Is there any point changing caps other than the 2 pairs of Daytons? I think the only others in the kit are the various power supply caps. Would upgrading to Panasonics or something similar be noticeable in any way?
The various power supply capacitors are Panasonics.  You can look for 10,000 hour rated variants if you're looking to run different parts. 

Paul "PB" Birkeland

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Offline Loquah

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Whoops. I was carelessly referring to the hi-end Panasonics I was recommended for my friend's Crack that I'm building. Careless because: A) I didn't confirm what was already used and B) because I didn't specify which Panasonics I was referencing as an upgrade. Sorry about that!

For the main caps, I went for some Auricaps which should arrive today. I decided that I can always spend more later for a further upgrade if I want to try Mundorfs, but also decided to keep the Mainline as neutral and accurate as I can whereas the Mundorfs are a bit warm and lush (which is great in my SEX, but I want some variety)

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Offline Paul Birkeland

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Yeah, a huge strength of the Mainline is that it does not require high voltage parafeed capacitors.  This allows one to look more for the 200V rated speaker crossover caps, which are not all that large and reasonably inexpensive.

Although the amplifier will have more than 200V across these caps at start-up, the voltage will drop within 5-10 seconds, which is not particularly taxing.  Film and foil caps in particular seem quite tolerant to this.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2014, 03:38:07 AM by Caucasian Blackplate »

Paul "PB" Birkeland

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Offline Loquah

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So would you suggest changing some of the power supply caps for that nth level of modification / upgrading insanity?

If so, what would an example option be to replace the PS caps with?

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Offline Loquah

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I installed the Auricaps tonight and I'm really happy based on very preliminary impressions.

They're much bigger than I expected (based on the pic on the supplier's site), but just fit between the C4S boards and the output transformers. I'll provide photos of the finished install tomorrow.

Very early impressions (<10 minutes of play time) are that they are completely neutral (as reported in various reviews), but incredibly transparent with rich, deep layering.

I'm off to bed now, but looking forward to some quality time spent with the Mainline tomorrow and some more detailed impressions to share once burn-in is more complete.

On that note, can anyone tell me roughly how long I should expect poly caps to take to burn-in fully?

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Offline swich401

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I would give them roughly 100 hours before considering them fully burnt in. Recommendations on needed burn-in time will vary considerably from which source the information is taken from.



Offline Loquah

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Thanks swich! If they're going to get better still, I'm very excited! I've put about 2 hours on them now and they're sounding marvellous.

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Offline Loquah

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I installed some FT-3 teflon caps in the regulator board tonight and honestly can't hear any noticeable difference, even without burn-in when these caps can be a little harsh. Is it safe to assume that changes to the regulator board caps shouldn't really affect the sound or might I be best waiting for burn-in?

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Offline Paul Birkeland

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That position has some sonic influence, but it's pretty small.  The 0.1uF/220 Ohm resistor presents a low impedance at high frequencies, which stabilizes the operation of the TL431. 

Paul "PB" Birkeland

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Offline Loquah

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Thanks for clarifying  :)

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Offline Loquah

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Thanks everyone for all your help with capacitor upgrade options / discussions, etc. I posted all my thoughts on both the S.E.X. and Mainline upgrades over at Head-Fi, but here's what I wrote in case you don't want to have to split time across 2 forums:

S.E.X Attenuator & Capacitor Upgrade - May 2014

During May 2014 I began to modify my S.E.X. and Mainline amps beginning with the volume pot in the S.E.X. which I replaced with a stepped attenuator, assembled using high quality Dale Vishay resistors. I chose this particular attenuator because the Dale resistors are known to be very transparent and are actually the same as those used in the Mainline kit. By all accounts, you can achieve similar results with other options - the key is transparency.

Attenuator Installation

The first thing to note if you are changing your attenuator (or potentiometer) is that you might need to carve out a bit of extra space from the locking channel where the pin / tab of the attenuator sits into the chassis plate in order to prevent it spinning. Thankfully, the aluminium chassis plate is easy to work with using either a hand-file or a dremel. In my case I had to lengthen and slightly enlarged the stock groove linked to the hole for the volume pot in the chassis plate. This isn't visible from the top once the volume knob is in place so don't stress if it's not the tidiest job ever (so long as you don't overshoot the width of the volume knob, but that would take some extreme carelessness).

Once the hole is ready, mounting the new attenuator is as easy as the stock one. Remove the supplied nut and washer(s), insert the spline through the hole, align the locking tab / pin and tighten the nut from the top side of the chassis. That's it for mounting - simple! The next step is wiring and that can change depending on the model of attenuator you choose so please refer to the provided instructions for your attenuator of choice and the instructions from the S.E.X. kit. If you get stuck, the wonderful people on this forum can also usually help.

Do be aware at this point though that you may find the stock volume knob sits a little higher than it used to. It's not a major drama, but for the aesthetically inclined, you might need to modify the stock knob or track down a different one if you want the knob sitting flush against the chassis.

Attenuator Sound Improvements

You're not going to make a change like this unless there's a payoff so let's discuss what happens when you change the attenuator. The exact changes may vary depending the brand / model used, but if you go for something known for transparency (like I did) then you'll get a nice increase in the detail and clarity of your S.E.X. The signature of the amp doesn't change significantly other than perhaps a slight bit more brightness, but it's subtle enough that I'd say to expect no real change in signature and just an increase in detail retrieval and texturing of sounds.

As an upgrade, I would say it is absolutely worth it. Including the time taken to modify the hole in the chassis I would say this is a 1-2 hour project and delivers a sound upgrade second only to the C4S mod. You can complete this mod on a budget of about $50 USD, but can also spend a bit more for more exotic attenuators if you want to.

Capacitor Upgrades

Next on my list was a double-barrelled capacitor upgrade. I approached the upgrade in 2 stages at the excellent advice of either JamieMcC or mcandmar - I apologise for not remembering which one gave that specific advice, but they both deserve kudos for their input and support over the course of multiple mod discussions around capacitors and the like. The reason for the 2-stage approach was to isolate the impact of each pair of capacitors, but the problem was that the sound was still limited by other caps in the system so I am going to summarise the whole upgrade in one hit because I can't truly describe the full potential of the FT-3 teflons I installed first without having upgraded the other (output) caps which then brought their own influence to the sound. Hopefully that makes sense...

I started off installing some FT-3 0.1uF teflon capacitors (the same as the ones used in the Mainline upgrade below) and immediately noticed improvements even though they require significant burn-in. These caps replaced the pillow-shaped brown / orange capacitors that sit over the tube sockets. Early improvements I noticed were cleaner, clearer textures in the sound and better layering of instruments in the soundstage (i.e. different instruments were now more clearly defined 'in space' within the soundstage). As I said above though, the full impact of the teflon caps couldn't reveal itself because they were hidden behind the stock output caps (which are good, but able to be improved).

Stage 2 was the installation of output capacitors - the ones that connect the sound to your ears (kind of). I chose the Mundorf Supreme Silver / Gold / Oil caps for this purpose after doing a lot of reading about this particular model's excellent warmth and midrange. I decided that the Mainline should stay as neutral as possible while the S.E.X. would become my fun, organic, musical amp. Don't get me wrong though - this doesn't mean I was trying to turn the S.E.X. into some kind of thick, syrupy mid-monster. I wanted musical, enjoyable sound that was still nimble, agile, liquid and accurate. The good news is that the mods were a resounding success.

With the Mundorfs installed, the S.E.X. instantly took another small step in a very positive direction. All of the sound was warmer and fuller, but not at all heavy or thick. Music is still well-paced and lively, but with a little more note weight (not quite as good as the Mainline in this regard, but closer) and more present mids.

The staging from the S.E.X. is still excellent, but the Mundorfs added to what I was already hearing from the FT-3 teflons by helping to deliver greater fine detail and textural cues.

No doubt there are even more (subtle) changes that took place as a result of my upgrades, but the inability to truly A/B makes a direct and detailed comparison impossible. What I can tell you by way of a summary is that the S.E.X. post-upgrade does everything good that I wrote about above only now slightly better and with a dash more soul and warmth. I imagine you could get similar improvements with different cap combinations too and encourage you to give it a go. Changing these 2 caps on the S.E.X. is a relatively easy process and it's fun to hear what results.


Mainline Cap Upgrade Update

Over the past few weeks (April-May 2014) I've installed two sets of capacitors into the Mainline starting with a set of 18uF Auricap High Resolution capacitors in the position of the stock Dayton 10uF capacitors and a set of 0.1uF FT-3 teflon capacitors fresh from Romania replacing the stock 0.1uF Daytons on the Bias Regulator board.
 
FT-3 Teflons - 0.1uF 600V

I'm going to start this update with the teflons on the regulator board. I've literally just finished this installation and it may require some time for burn-in of the teflon caps, but I honestly can't hear any noticeable difference in the sound and would question the value given that the installation is a bit ugly and clunky due to the size of these capacitors. As you can see in the image attached I've had to run fly leads from the teflon caps which are cable tied to the Auricaps. I've also use some heat shrink tape to create an insulating buffer to keep the teflon caps sitting a little way off the Auricaps (even though there should be no issue with them touching due to the plastic coating on the Auricaps.

These FT-3s cost around $10 per pair plus postage (via eBay) so it's a small enough investment that I really don't mind if they have done absolutely nothing to the sound because they haven't taken anything away and if they provide improvements after burn-in then that's great.

I found some variation in the bias settings (adjustments to ensure identical voltages for each output tube) following the install so if you do change the regulator caps be sure to double-check the biasing if you want to maximise performance.
 
Auricap High Resolution Polypropylene - 18uF 400V

These have been in place for a few weeks now and are definitely a worthy upgrade. They cost me about $130 for the pair from a local supplier and are the best $130 I've spent in a while. As you can see in the picture, they just fit in the space between the C4S boards and the output transformers, but still need a tie down using an adhesive anchor on the chassis (the same as the ones supplied with the Mainline kit to tie down the Cat 6 cables).

If you've read my review of the Mainline on Head-Fi, you'll know that the treble on the Mainline in stock form is extended and detailed, but still smooth and non-fatiguing. I did say in the original review that there's no hint of fatigue when listening to the Mainline, but I have to call myself a liar now and say that there must have been the tiniest hint of harshness / graininess there. I know that because now it's gone and its absence has left all of the Mainlines magic on full display. Don't get me wrong, the stock Mainline kit is in no way flawed. In fact, as I see it, the ability to spend $130 and 15 minutes to bring the amp to another level shows just how good this circuit is.

The sound with the Auricaps is basically identical to the overall sound of the stock Mainline only smoother, more defined and just better. Treble is smoother while still fully extended and detailed. Midrange textures are sophisticated and intricate, and the bass is extended, textured and punchy. As I said above, the best thing about the Auricaps in the Mainline is that they don't change a great thing. They keep the Mainline's signature and neutrality completely intact and just let it do what it does better. It's hard to say exactly how much influence the Auricaps have had on this next part, but I would swear that the Mainline now has a clearer, stronger image than before. This is most likely due to the slightly smoother treble allowing all the other auditory cues to arrive cleanly and accurately, but the staging and imaging now with the Beyer T1s is really magical. It was good before - outstanding even, but it definitely seems even better to these ears now. I am having "wow" moments multiple times each day.

One other note as to why I chose the 18uF rather than a direct replacement of the 10uF stock caps. From the reading I did, a larger capacitance can provide better bass response which I was keen to explore to see if there was any room for improvement in the case of the Mainline. The results are that if there's an improvement there I can't tell. The hardest challenge here is that you can't quickly A/B a capacitor change like this so it's all based on auditory memory and the difference in bass extension (if there is one) is small enough to be insignificant, unlike the change in sophistication and smoothness in the mids and treble.
 
Capacitor Wrap

The only other caps in the circuit that could potentially benefit from upgrading are the electrolytics used on the power supply board, but they fit so neatly on the board and are already good quality Panasonic capacitors so the potential benefits here seem questionable (although I'm always open to being convinced otherwise).

If I were asked today what to upgrade in the Mainline, I would strongly urge building the stock kit first and then considering the Auricaps if you like the stock sound. If you yearn for something warmer or lusher - more tubey perhaps - then the Mundorf Supremes might be a better choice (write up of Mundorf Supreme Silver / Gold / Oil coming to the S.E.X. review soon), but I definitely think there's huge value in hearing the stock kit first so you know which way to tweak (or not tweak) the sound if you choose to upgrade the output (technically parafeed coupling) caps. Unless something changes in the coming days / weeks in which case I'll be back to edit this post, I wouldn't really recommend changing the regulator caps. Keep the build neat and simple.

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