Eros Phono vs. Transcendent Sound phono preamp

[Anton]

Hello everybody,
I was thinking about upgrading my stereo and considering trying tubes instead of solid states. And just to make this transition more exciting I was going to try to assemble it myself.
I prefer music on a vinyl, so I decided to start with phono stage upgrade. I found Eros Phono preamp available as a kit and also I found Transcendent Sound Phono Preamp (http://www.transcendentsound.com/PhonoPreamp.htm). They both in similar price category.

Can anybody give me an advise, which one I better to choose and why. And overall - is this a good idea to try assemble phono stage myself considering I don't have experience in that.

Thank you very much

[tttubes]

I just built an Eros and it has the best directions of any kit I have built it sounds great and would highly recommend it not sure about the Transcendent sound phono.

[Anton]

Thanks for response.
Are there any requirements on equipment downstream of phono pre-amp. Can I feed it to integrated amplifier or do I need line pre-amp?

[Paul Birkeland]

Without saying too much in either direction, I think a lot of this has to do with how much you like the sound of cascoded tubes and SRPP versus the EF86 run in pentode and a simple CCS loaded triode.  

Both kits offer regulated filaments, which is nice at this price point.  Both kits have roughly the same gain.  Both use a full-wave doubler for the high voltage power supply.  The Transcendent has a choke filtered power supply, while the Eros is fully shunt regulated.

The signal portion of the Eros is point-to-point wired, providing a pretty good platform for parts exchange.  The Transcendent is all PC boards.

The Transcendent has a large aluminum chassis, and the Eros is on a plate/wood base.

It would likely be far less expensive to retube the Transcendent, but your choices will be more limited, and the 12AX7's should be reasonably well matched.

The Transcendent has a lower output impedance (specified as 1k vs. roughly 4k for the Eros), although the Eros will have more drive current.  Either should work fine into an integrated amp, unless for some strange reason your integrated has low impedance TVC's or attenuators (most tubed integrated amps will have a 50-250k pot at the input, so input impedance is high).

Sonically, I haven't heard the Transcendent, so I won't really offer any opinions about it.  

[Dr. Toobz]

Thanks for response.
Are there any requirements on equipment downstream of phono pre-amp. Can I feed it to integrated amplifier or do I need line pre-amp?

IMO, the BH amp is a lot nicer looking cosmetically, and would give you some choice in terms of making it your own. My own BH amps (3!) are stained and painted to match my wooden turntable. Otherwise, they may functionally be rather similar. Both companies make good stuff, though I'll admit that I'm biased towards a certain one....

[Grainger49]

One of the posters here has built 2 of the Transcendent OTL kits.  He would be a good person to chime in.  I will send him a message.

I'm looking at the Transcendent site at the Transcendent Sound Phono Preamp (TSPP).  The TSPP's casework is impressive.  The Eros is different.  The top plate of the Eros is substantial, laser cut and it has wood but it is not the same as the TSPP.  Different.

On to the real stuff:  The first stage of the TSPP uses a triode, the Eros a pentode.  They both use passive RIAA EQ between the two stages. 

In the TSPP both stages use the "SRPP" configuration which is a signature of Rozenblit, Transcendent's founder.  The SRPP configuration is similar to Bottlehead's C4S configuration but it requires twice the number of tubes.  These extra tubes are not in the signal path, but still must be replaced as often as the audio path tubes.  I think the use of SS devices in the constant current sources of the Eros is an intelligent alternative.  The Eros does use a tube to regulate both the right and left power supplies.  This is a meaningful improvement over a single power supply for both channels.  There is no mention on the Transcendent page, I don't know what they use.

I feel sure that the TSPP uses circuit boards for the audio circuit and power supply, Bottlehead uses point to point wiring for the audio path and circuit boards in the power supply where there is no sonic degradation from the circuit boards.

Both companies have a bulletin board but a quick look at Transcendent's indicates Doc's is better organized.  I may be wrong, this was a quick look I thought everything was on one page not organized in folders for each product.  If Transcendent's is as responsive as Bottlehead's that would be nice.

Added after dinner:

Bottlehead products all have power transformers that are designed and custom built.  They help keep the noise in Bottlehead equipment as low as possible.

The Bottlehead kits are very carefully documented.  The Eros manual, a CD-R, includes many pictures; just about one for each step of assembly.  The Eros is a second level kit but novices build it all the time.  You should allow at least 4 or 5 evenings  to do the job so you will not get tired. 

The Eros will perform best if the input of your integrated amp is 15k ohms, but will still perform well into less.  I think you shouldn't go under 10k ohms.

Here are the good pictures, including the insides:

http://www.bottlehead.com/store.php?crn=220&rn=428&action=show_detail

The Eros Mini Review is mine.

[Anton]

Wow,
I am really impressed with the speed and quality of responses. Paul and Grainger - thank you for very detailed explanation. Was very helpful, although have to admit I didn't understand everything. But it is OK - will read something to get up to speed on subject.
I should say guys you have here one of the best online communities I ever came across. Really guys - thanks a lot.
I should say - this a new area for me. Right now I have an entry level stereo. I decided to switch to vinyl about a year ago, and this was first stereo I bought:
1. Turntable Cambridge Audio TT50
2. MC Cartridge Denon DL 110
3. Phono pre-amp Cambridge Audio Azur 640P (solid state)
4. Amplifier Cambridge Audio Azur 640A (solid state)
5. Speakers KEF iQ3
6. ICs - Monster I300MKII-2M 300 Series Mark II RCA Stereo Cables
7. Speaker Cables - Accell B067B-050H 12-Gauge UltraAudio Speaker Cable

Now I am thinking about upgrade. I know, everybody says to start with the front end and upgrade turntable first. But when I start thinking about trying tubes and found this site - I decided to go for phono pre-amp first - partially because it is very interesting to assemble it myself. It just seems as a very interesting project.

And from here - there is a question. After I built Eros - can I use it with my current stereo while upgrading each component after another? Or is it better to keep it until I will upgrade all my other components. And then - may be really I have to upgrade my turntable first? What do you think?
My current amplifier has 47 kohms input impedances. The output of my cartridge - 1.6 mV.

By the way when I decide to upgrade my amplifier - what goes good with Eros?

I will appreciate your comments and recommendations.

[Grainger49]

Yes, Eros will fit nicely between your table/cartridge and your Audio Azur 640A. 

The upgrade path here would be SEX amp (2 WPC), or Foreplay III and either the upcoming Stereomour (3.5WPC) or existing Paramounts in 300B (8WPC).

I am not sure about the sensitivity of your speakers so I can't say what is appropriate.  I had to wait for Bottlehead amplification till I bought more sensitive speakers.  Mine are 94 dBW and get way louder than I want to listen to.  I just found yours, 89dBW, they need some more power or you will listen quietly.

[Anton]

Thanks Grainger,
I looked at Paramount 300B, but 8 watts per channel seems like really low. My current speakers require minimum 15 watts. I was going to upgrade to floor standing KEF QX40, but they require 15 watts minimum too. What speakers are you using?

Is there anything on the market with higher output in this price range? I was looking at Jolida 520B (60W  per channel) - do you think this is good option?
Although I would prefer something in the same finish(wood), if I decide to go and buy Eros.

Thank you

[tpatton]

I have the Transcendent Sound phono preamp, which I've upgraded to the hilt, as usual: many Black Gate caps, premium film caps (forget which, not Audicaps, better), and input/output wires custom made by Stealth Audio Cables, fancy RCA's, pretty much all I could think of.  It sounds very good indeed, though nothing matches my two-chassis Seduction for truth of instrumental timbre and general listenability.  I'll build an Eros some day, and from all I've heard, it will be better than the Transcendent Sound phono, though I love to change back and forth, and will surely keep and enjoy listening to both.

The Transcendent Sound manual is fine, with good pictures, but no resistance or voltage checks outlined.  No manual I've ever seen matches the Bottlehead manuals, in completeness and in anticipating problems.  I would expect better support from Bottlehead for anyone who runs into trouble in the build.

So in your position, Anton, I'd definitely go for the Eros, despite never having heard one. 

[Grainger49]

Anton,

Power requirements are a hard thing to work with.  Sometimes an 8 WPC tubed amp will work with speakers that the manufacturer says needs 15 WPC, sometimes not.  It depends on your room size, music you listen to, listening volume... you get the picture, many factors.

I always suggest that a potential Bottlehead post here in the general area asking for a Bottlehead in his area bring over an amplifier, offer beer and good music, and find out what a Bottlehead amp sounds like in your room, with your system.  If you can find a Bottlehead with Paramount 300Bs all the better.  I tried my speakers at a Bottlehead's house and found the Paramour wouldn't drive my speakers, but I heard something special.  I ended up buying more sensitive speakers.

I now have Triangle Zerius speakers.  They are floor standers and excel in soundstage and imaging.  I'm a soundstage/imaging junkie.  Having a speaker that sings with my 3.5 WPC Paramours allows me to upgrade and tweak my amps, with MagneQuest output transformers and plate chokes, upgraded capacitors and some small tweaks that I wanted to do with the extra cash I saved from buying higher powered amps.  I have a little more cash to buy LPs too.  

Part of the magic with Bottlehead equipment comes from Bottlehead standard designs.  In all their amps a single tube, class A amplification, Single Ended Triode (SET), Parafeed output are used.  Those first three are about having a clean signal path.  Bottlehead doesn't make a push pull amplifier.  In push pull there are two tubes that split the duty cycle on the output.  With SET there is one tube amplifying the whole audio wave.  There is something special about that.  You need to hear it.

I have heard several Jolita amps.  I haven't by any means heard a large selection.  They have been really good sounding amplifiers.  They would be an improvement over your current amp.  But I will still suggest you hear SET before deciding.  

So your upgrade path might be the same as mine.  I bought a phono preamp, Seduction, then a line stage preamp, Foreplay, then after new speakers Paramour SET power amplifiers (they come in mono pairs).

One last thought, there are a large number of high sensitivity speakers out there.  Just a few are the Pi speakers, Cain & Cain speakers, a range of speakers using Fostex single drivers, Klipsch, The Horn Shoppe (you got to look at The Horn Shoppe's site) and a lot of vintage speaker systems.

[Anton]

Grainger,
Thanks a lot for your comments. I think I am convinced and going to try Eros.
One last question regarding Paramount 300 amplifier. How much inputs Paramount 300B has?
I have a CD-player too. I don't listen to it really much, but it would be nice to be able to feed it to amplifier as well. Can I do that?
By the way - Paramount 300B is it integrated amp and does it have volume control?

My CD player Cambridge Audio C640v.2

Anton

[Grainger49]

The Bottlehead amps are all one input devices, only the SEX has volume control.  Putting a preamp between your CD player or Eros and the amplifier gives you volume, balance and input selection.  But that isn't the most important thing, they all (the amplifiers) sound best if there is an active gain stage driving them.  It adds life to the music most passives lack.  Some passives have life, but few and far between.  Your system description says you like high quality components.  The Bottlehead line is high quality and pretty amazing sounding.

That is the path I took, Phono Stage, Line Stage, new speakers then SET amp.

[Anton]

Guys,
Thank you everybody for comments. I just placed order for Eros phono preamp. Looking forward to introduce myself to  the world of tubes.

Will keep you posted and sure will be back regarding building issues.

Thanks to everyone

[JC]

I'm sure you will enjoy the experience very much!

This community is extremely good about offering help, so I very much recommend that you look at it as a resource for any questions you have as you build your kit.  There is no question that is not worth asking, and the answers you receive are likely to help others, too.

If I were to offer one suggestion, it would be to read your instruction manual a few times before you start.  Bottlehead provides excellent manuals, and they are very informative in helping you to familiarize yourself with the building process.

Oh, one other suggestion: Take your time and enjoy the build.  Bottlehead kits are almost as much fun to build as they are to listen to, and many people are sorry when the building is over, even as they are enjoying the music!