Tube Rolling w/Crack

Dr. Toobz · 1223316

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Offline chavac

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Reply #570 on: August 10, 2013, 05:05:41 PM
Quick question for you guys. I just finished my crack the other day and let it burn in for about 8 hours with no problems. Went to use it the next day and noticed the power tube was not lighting up. It will come on if I wiggle it, but eventually fades back out after 5-10 seconds. I suspected maybe it was a problem with the pin prongs in the socket making contact, but they're pretty unremarkable and not really amenable to tightening. Just wanted to check if this could be a wonky tube? And if so can anyone float me a recommendation for a solid <100$ tube? I've been looking at the 6SN7+adapter but wasn't sure they work without a speedball.



Offline adamct

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Reply #571 on: August 10, 2013, 05:09:55 PM
Sounds like it is more likely a cold solder joint on the underside of the tube socket, such that you are only getting intermittent contact...

See my post above regarding my experience with using 6SN7 tubes via adapters. I've heard the same thing from at least two others. My advice is to stay away...



w0lfd0g

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Reply #572 on: August 11, 2013, 02:28:15 AM
Finally!

I have spent a bucket load of money on tubes in search of that enigmatic "perfect sound".  I have now found the sound that is perfect for me (for now).

Thought that tube rolling was a waste of time and money in the Crack, but have stumbled upon a combination that works for me:

Driver tube: Mullard E80CC (Philips made)
Output tube: GEC 6AS7G Brown Base

Has anyone else tried this combination?

Only a matter of hours ago I described tube rolling as "Emperor's New Clothes" syndrome to a fellow forum member.  I have stuck with the combination noted above for perhaps fifty hours - Maybe I didn't give tubes long enough to burn in.  Maybe I am a victim of the "mass psychosis". 

In any case, I am hearing clarity, bass extension and speed without the sacrifice of warmth or treble roll off to a degree I have never heard before in this system or any other.   

The context?  BH Crack with Speed Ball, cap upgrades, 100K Blue Alps pot, driven by a Meier Audio Stage DAC playing FLAC files.  Headphones are Beyer T90s.

My Nirvana... until the urge to tinker strikes again. 
« Last Edit: August 11, 2013, 02:31:03 AM by w0lfd0g »



Offline Aeolus Kratos

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Reply #573 on: August 11, 2013, 04:56:45 AM
Finally!

I have spent a bucket load of money on tubes in search of that enigmatic "perfect sound".  I have now found the sound that is perfect for me (for now).

Thought that tube rolling was a waste of time and money in the Crack, but have stumbled upon a combination that works for me:

Driver tube: Mullard E80CC (Philips made)
Output tube: GEC 6AS7G Brown Base

Has anyone else tried this combination?

Only a matter of hours ago I described tube rolling as "Emperor's New Clothes" syndrome to a fellow forum member.  I have stuck with the combination noted above for perhaps fifty hours - Maybe I didn't give tubes long enough to burn in.  Maybe I am a victim of the "mass psychosis". 

In any case, I am hearing clarity, bass extension and speed without the sacrifice of warmth or treble roll off to a degree I have never heard before in this system or any other.   

The context?  BH Crack with Speed Ball, cap upgrades, 100K Blue Alps pot, driven by a Meier Audio Stage DAC playing FLAC files.  Headphones are Beyer T90s.

My Nirvana... until the urge to tinker strikes again.

Congrats! I have never heard the GECs, I'm currently using the Tungsram E80CC as my input tube and the Tung-sol 5998 for power tube and I really enjoyed it. Have you ever heard the 5998s? If so, can you give me some impressions on how they sound compared with the GECs? I'm planning to upgrade to the GEC 6AS7G but I'm not to sure if the differences are worth the premium or not :(

Best Regards,
Kratos.



w0lfd0g

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Reply #574 on: August 11, 2013, 10:46:34 PM
Hi Kratos

Do you have the Speedball installed?  My experience in rolling with the Crack has only been + SB.

The 5998 was my second favourite output tube after the WE 421A (some would argue that the two are one and the same tube, but my samples varied in sound quality).  Unfortunately I sold the 5998 before I could do a side by side comparison with the GEC 6AS7G.  I don't trust my memory enough to be direct in my comparisons and I never tried it with the Mullard E80CC as a driver. 

That said, I would be very happy with the 5998 as an output tube.  Heck, I am happy with any tube in the Crack (+ SB). 

My previous listening experience was that the driver tube made no difference to sound quality but there was a subtle difference in sound produced using various output tubes.  I have since revised this as per the post you quoted.

However, let my experiences be a cautionary tale.  I have spent over $4,000.00 in tube rolling the Crack.  It took me this much money and an awful lot of time to determine that:

A. If you roll tubes in the Crack + SB, you will only get very subtle variations in sound quality
B. What works for one person may not necessarily work for another (variables such as personal preferences in sound quality and other components in the system come into play here)
C. Tube rolling can still be a lot of fun and is very addictive

I don't regret my experiences, but consider that money may have been better spent investing in some different headphones - "Rolling" headphones will get greater variation at less expense. 



Offline Aeolus Kratos

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Reply #575 on: August 12, 2013, 05:24:32 AM
Hi Kratos

Do you have the Speedball installed?  My experience in rolling with the Crack has only been + SB.

The 5998 was my second favourite output tube after the WE 421A (some would argue that the two are one and the same tube, but my samples varied in sound quality).  Unfortunately I sold the 5998 before I could do a side by side comparison with the GEC 6AS7G.  I don't trust my memory enough to be direct in my comparisons and I never tried it with the Mullard E80CC as a driver. 

That said, I would be very happy with the 5998 as an output tube.  Heck, I am happy with any tube in the Crack (+ SB). 

My previous listening experience was that the driver tube made no difference to sound quality but there was a subtle difference in sound produced using various output tubes.  I have since revised this as per the post you quoted.

However, let my experiences be a cautionary tale.  I have spent over $4,000.00 in tube rolling the Crack.  It took me this much money and an awful lot of time to determine that:

A. If you roll tubes in the Crack + SB, you will only get very subtle variations in sound quality
B. What works for one person may not necessarily work for another (variables such as personal preferences in sound quality and other components in the system come into play here)
C. Tube rolling can still be a lot of fun and is very addictive

I don't regret my experiences, but consider that money may have been better spent investing in some different headphones - "Rolling" headphones will get greater variation at less expense.

Hi Nathan,

Yes, I do have the Speedball installed on my Crack.

You said that the 5998 was your second favourite output tube after the WE 421A, so where is the GEC? You don't prefer it to the 5998 and 421A? :P

Thank you for your experience, I totally agree with you. I've rolled some 12AU7s and one E80CC so far, and I've noticed that the difference in sound quality when changing the input tubes is not as noticeable as changing the output tubes.

To be honest, I bought my Crack JUST for my beloved HD650. So I'm not planning to change headphones, partly because the Cracks are OTL amps, and they are not designed to drive low impedance headphone.

Best regards,
Kratos.

« Last Edit: August 12, 2013, 04:27:08 PM by Aeolus Kratos »



w0lfd0g

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Reply #576 on: August 12, 2013, 04:16:17 PM
Sorry Kratos

Should have clarified that - the GEC 6AS7G is my favourite tube now and the WE 421A was my favourite tube previously.  BTW, I am using the straight base version of the GEC.

Cheers!



Offline Aeolus Kratos

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Reply #577 on: August 12, 2013, 04:37:38 PM
Sorry Kratos

Should have clarified that - the GEC 6AS7G is my favourite tube now and the WE 421A was my favourite tube previously.  BTW, I am using the straight base version of the GEC.

Cheers!
Hi Nathan,

Thanks for clarifying. I've read that there is a slight difference in sound quality between the round base and straight base version of the GECs.

Have a good day and enjoy the lovely music!
Kratos.



Offline dubiousmike

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Reply #578 on: August 13, 2013, 09:56:32 AM
Kratos,

I've spent a fair amount of time with a GEC 6as7g straight brown base (driving HD800's) - and my view, at present, is that this tube is a bit over-hyped.  No doubt they are nice tubes, with a unique internal structure, but 5998's and frankly many 6080's also sound great in my crack (with speedball and other easy mods) and can be had for a lot less money. 
 
My GEC tube sounds like a very refined, premium, noise free 6080.  In terms of comparing sonics, through my setup w/ hd800's, 5998's sound slightly brighter, livelier and more holographic.  The GEC and 6080's are slightly more laid back and have a bit more mid-bass - particularly around 100hz where the hd800's have a significant spike in their impedance curve.  This all makes sense given that 5998's/7236's lower your output impedance (considered a good thing by many) but also raise the gain, which may or may not be a good thing in your setup.  (See also page 2 of http://www.pmillett.com/Wheatfield/rolling.pdf - similarly describing the sonic differences between these tubes.) 

At approximately equal volume, if I throw on bass heavy tracks (e.g. 2pac's "u can't see me"), I perceive that the bass hits harder and fuller if I'm running my GEC 6as7g (or, for that matter, my other 6080's), when compared to any of my handful of 5998's.  In the 6as7 thread on head-fi, folks with different amps and headphones have claimed just the opposite - that 5998's have more bass, which may be the case with the headphones they are using.  As I understand it, the impedance curve of the headphone is going to impact the effect of the change in output impedance.  Check out, for example, this thread on hd800's and high output impedance amps: http://www.changstar.com/index.php?topic=90.0
 
All in all, I certainly would not drop the 2 bills ebay sellers are currently charging for GEC tubes.  I paid $100 for mine, and I doubt I would be inclined to pay that much again.  I like the tube, but I would say that I find myself reaching for my 5998's just as often.  In fact, for the last couple of weeks, I've been experimenting with a number of dirt cheap JAN 6080's that have me second guessing whether it makes any sense at all to pay for "premium" 6as7 equivalents.  I paid $15 for a pair of Chatham's on ebay that are dead quiet, not even remotely microphonic, and which had me listening to fournier's rendition of bach's cello concertos until the wee hours the night before last.  If I manage to take my own good advice, I'll stop collecting surplus tubes and save my pennies for the bh dac. 

My favorite a-socket tube is still a tung sol 12bh7.

Mike M.


Offline adamct

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Reply #579 on: August 13, 2013, 10:12:58 AM
I have HD800s, two GEC brown-base (straight) 6AS7Gs, five 5998s, a Bendix 6080 with graphite plates, and any number of other 6AS7Gs and 6080s.

I pretty much agree with everything dubiousmike wrote below (except that I paid waaaaaaaaaay more than he did for my GEC 6AS7Gs). A few further notes:

1. I like my GEC because it is quiet, not because it sounds better.
2. The GECs are not the only quiet tubes out there. In particular, I find the 6080s of all brands and prices tend to be quite quiet.
3. I don't notice any differences in bass compared to my 5998s one way or the other, but I frankly haven't tried to compare that and don't plan to. Any differences much be tiny, so I'm not surprised that people fall on both sides of that fence.
4. I wouldn't bother replacing the output tube unless it is somehow broken. Every tube I've tried sounds good... Well, except for the first tube I got, which went kablooey the first time I fired up my Crack (the tube was bad, the amp was fine).
5. I'm using a Mullard 12BH7, but just about every driver tube I've tried has sounded good, too.

Tube rolling just doesn't seem like a wise use of money to me. If you want to tweak the sound of your rig, your money is much, much better spent on headphones (Sennheisers in particular are outstanding with the Crack).

Regards,
Adam



Offline Aeolus Kratos

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Reply #580 on: August 13, 2013, 06:58:55 PM
Kratos,

My GEC tube sounds like a very refined, premium, noise free 6080.  In terms of comparing sonics, through my setup w/ hd800's, 5998's sound slightly brighter, livelier and more holographic.  The GEC and 6080's are slightly more laid back and have a bit more mid-bass - particularly around 100hz where the hd800's have a significant spike in their impedance curve.  This all makes sense given that 5998's/7236's lower your output impedance (considered a good thing by many) but also raise the gain, which may or may not be a good thing in your setup.  (See also page 2 of http://www.pmillett.com/Wheatfield/rolling.pdf - similarly describing the sonic differences between these tubes.) 

At approximately equal volume, if I throw on bass heavy tracks (e.g. 2pac's "u can't see me"), I perceive that the bass hits harder and fuller if I'm running my GEC 6as7g (or, for that matter, my other 6080's), when compared to any of my handful of 5998's.  In the 6as7 thread on head-fi, folks with different amps and headphones have claimed just the opposite - that 5998's have more bass, which may be the case with the headphones they are using.  As I understand it, the impedance curve of the headphone is going to impact the effect of the change in output impedance.  Check out, for example, this thread on hd800's and high output impedance amps: http://www.changstar.com/index.php?topic=90.0
 
All in all, I certainly would not drop the 2 bills ebay sellers are currently charging for GEC tubes.  I paid $100 for mine, and I doubt I would be inclined to pay that much again.  I like the tube, but I would say that I find myself reaching for my 5998's just as often. If I manage to take my own good advice, I'll stop collecting surplus tubes and save my pennies for the bh dac. 

My favorite a-socket tube is still a tung sol 12bh7.

Hi dubiousmike,

First of all, thank you very much for your superb detailed and helpful advice!

As far as I know and thanks to what you said, I assume that the HD650's ( or 'dark', slow and 'veiled' headphones ) are more suitable to the 5998's as their sound is bright, fast and detailed; whereas the GEC 6AS7G's are for the bright, fast, detailed headphones like the HD800's to give them more mid-bass and 'tubey' sound. Am I right?

And yes, I would definitely save my money for the coming BH DAC. I bet it is gonna be great when paired with the Cracks :D :D

All the best,
Kratos.



Offline adamct

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Reply #581 on: August 13, 2013, 07:01:12 PM
Honestly, just don't worry about tubes. I don't know how much more plainly to say it.



Offline Aeolus Kratos

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Reply #582 on: August 13, 2013, 07:07:59 PM

I pretty much agree with everything dubiousmike wrote below (except that I paid waaaaaaaaaay more than he did for my GEC 6AS7Gs). A few further notes:

1. I like my GEC because it is quiet, not because it sounds better.
2. The GECs are not the only quiet tubes out there. In particular, I find the 6080s of all brands and prices tend to be quite quiet.
3. I don't notice any differences in bass compared to my 5998s one way or the other, but I frankly haven't tried to compare that and don't plan to. Any differences much be tiny, so I'm not surprised that people fall on both sides of that fence.
4. I wouldn't bother replacing the output tube unless it is somehow broken. Every tube I've tried sounds good... Well, except for the first tube I got, which went kablooey the first time I fired up my Crack (the tube was bad, the amp was fine).
5. I'm using a Mullard 12BH7, but just about every driver tube I've tried has sounded good, too.

Tube rolling just doesn't seem like a wise use of money to me. If you want to tweak the sound of your rig, your money is much, much better spent on headphones (Sennheisers in particular are outstanding with the Crack).

Regards,
Adam
Hi Adam,

Haha, sorry to hear about what you paid for your GEC 6AS7Gs, they have been crazy expensive these day :P

Now I think I would stop collecting premium tubes and wait for the BH DAC, do you know when it will be released and its expected price?

Best,
Kratos.



Offline adamct

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Reply #583 on: August 13, 2013, 07:28:33 PM
Nope. Nobody does. But I expect it to be at least 2 months away from availability, and probably longer. The design of the digital section isn't finalized. Then Doc needs to handle the analog sections. Then they need to finalize parts. Then write the manual and take pictures. Then they need to source parts and receive them. Then they need to pack and ship. They are working on it, but this won't be done in the next week or four.

I'm sure the Bottlehead team will jump in if I am disseminating misinformation.



w0lfd0g

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Reply #584 on: August 13, 2013, 10:02:36 PM
Honestly, just don't worry about tubes. I don't know how much more plainly to say it.

 :'(

If only I had heard these words from Adam two months ago.  But, fwiw, I can hear a difference between output tubes in my system.  There is just a disproportionate relationship between the money spent to experience the difference and the magnitude of the differences. 
« Last Edit: August 13, 2013, 10:31:05 PM by w0lfd0g »