Reduction Too Quiet

[tjessen]

I've compared Reduction to another phono preamp and it delivers a similar gain. I've spent about 6 hours now with my Reduction and many different recordings and for the most time the volume delivered is sufficient, I just wish for a little more on certain recordings or as my listening session progresses. I'm running a pair of hd650s and a Tung Sol 5998 which seemed to raise the gain. I've also used it with my speakers, and it achieves similar loudness to my other phono pre (40/42ish db gain). It seems up to industry standards, I just want more loudness in my system.

[Doc B.]

If you just want a little more volume the Integration would probably be the best solution. You could also try a 5998 in place of the 6080 in the Crack, as it has a smaller magnitude negative gain (meaning it makes the Crack a little more sensitive)

[tjessen]

I'm building a preamp to use in my speaker system and will see how it performs with my vinyl rig and Crack. Right now the noise coming from the Crack is quite audible when listening to lps so I'm hoping the preamp will work well in the system. Thanks for all of the suggestions! I hope you Canadians had a wonderful Thanksgiving.

[crackaddict]

Hi all,

I'm jumping onto this thread as I was just about to start up a similar one. I finished my Reduction (Integration upgrade built but installation pending a first listen without, per forum advice a few months ago) and finally received my Pro-Ject 2Xperience Classic with Sumico Blue Point No. 2 High Output MC cartridge. This is my first turntable in 20 years, so I have no other point of reference.

For several months, my setup has been Sonos -> Arcam rDAC -> Steremour -> Orcas + Dungeness. Now I swapped the input to Pro-Ject/Sumico -> Reduction -> Steremour. My immediate reaction was the same: way too quiet. I used to listen to the Steremour at about 12:00 when sitting at my desk (1m from the Orcas). I could listen to it at 100% without any earbleed, but that really was too LOUD.

Now, with the Reduction, I am listening at 90%-100%. With many records, even 100% leaves me looking for more volume. This is based on a sample of about 20 rock LPs from the '60s and '70s, and a few remastered jazz LPs. For example, the remastered 180gm Sketches of Spain is FAR too quiet to enjoy, as is an original 1971 pressing of Led Zeppelin III (which was still sealed until yesterday!).

I will try the Integration upgrade immediately, but I'm also wondering if there is another unit I can add to the signal chain to get more output?

Also, I'm thinking I just need to build a second system, i.e. keep the Steremour and Orcas in my smaller study, and build a set of Paramours for 5" Mako standmounts in my large living room, for use with the turntable. I'm wondering if the 9W output and slightly more sensitive speakers will be substantially different?

Any ideas are much appreciated.

Thanks,
Derek

[Doc B.]

You really need to put the Integration in before you can make a determination because it will increase the output. The 2.5mV Sumiko output is right at low end of what we recommend using with the Reduction. If the Integration doesn't get you up to where you feel the level needs to be, a Quickie added after the Reduction will boost the signal level a bit more.

[crackaddict]

Super. Will look into the quickie and will consider whether there's an easy-ish upgrade path (swap) for my cartridge.

Thanks,
Derek

[tjessen]

You're situation is flawlessly exact of mine Derek. Let us know how any solution you decide upon performs, I'm considering a preamp.

[crackaddict]

I'm heading out today to swap out the cartridge. I figure it's the first place to start, getting something that puts out 5mV. Then I'll add the Integration upgrade. I'll let you know what cartridge I end up with and how it works out.

[Paul Birkeland]

I think that's a wise decision. 

-PB

[crackaddict]

So, today I had the hi-fi shop swap my cartridge for an Ortofon 2M Blue (I got some cash back out of the deal!). That definitely helped. For about the same volume that used to be maxed out, the new cartridge had me at about 3:00. Then I installed the Integration upgrade, which dropped the volume knob another "hour," i.e. perhaps to 2:00 for the same volume.

So the good news is I'm getting some definite volume out of this setup now! With an original pressing of Van Halen's Diver Down, sitting in the same near-field location as before, I don't need to turn it past 12:00. And putting it through my Crack, going past 12:00 got to be too much.

When I lift the needle off the record, however, a hum becomes quite apparent. I have easily isolated this to the Reduction. Troubleshooting that is likely for another thread...

Now I just need to figure out if I like this cartridge or not. It's my first turntable since I got my first CD player in 1987, so I don't have a lot to compare it to. But overall, I'm very glad im getting back into vinyl.

Derek

[fullheadofnothing]

Have you shorted the inputs on the Reduction? Hum is frequently introduced by the cartridge/arm. Those. Ortofons are particularly problematic with the shield screw on top of the cart body creating more problems than it solves...

[crackaddict]

First I turned off the turntable. Then I disconnected it. Then I shorted the inputs. Still no change. When I turn off the Reduction, the Crack goes dead silent (unless I crank it up louder than I would never listen to it anyway --  at about 75% volume, i.e. 3:00, an audible buzz shows up in the Crack).

With the Reduction (post-Integration upgrade; I don't know if this was a problem before, as I only tested with the Steremour and I was dealing with the volume issue), as soon as I turn it on (even with inputs shorted), I hear a definite hiss in both channels. Then, within maybe half a minute, a hum shows up in the left channel, and a few seconds later in the right channel. All this is quite noticeable with the volume knob on either the Crack or the Steremour in my normal listening position, about 12:00. And again, turning off the Reduction makes both amps go dead silent.

(I hope my use of the words buzz, hiss, and hum are descriptive enough...)

Thanks,
Derek

[crackaddict]

Hi again,

Please let me know if I should start a new thread on the hum question. A search through the forum for "hum" didn't bring up a lot. There's plenty on hiss, and for that I'll let the tubes run in and see how it sounds in a few weeks.

The hum (maybe 60Hz, could be 120Hz -- I don't know) is something I'd really like to get rid of. When I did the voltage test I noticed the LEDs (both on the PCBs and those surrounding the tubes) light up "group by group." The appearance of hum follows that order (first left, then right).

Is the positioning of the leads which connect the PCBs important? (I.e. should I move them far away from the tubes beneath them?) I'm quite sure I have solid solder connections throughout, as I did everything incredibly methodically and very slowly, visual inspection reveals no issues, and resistance and voltage checks are good. At this point I have no new ideas so any input is highly appreciated.

Thanks,
Derek

[Paul Joppa]

A new thread is a good idea, this one is getting clumsy to scroll through.

Start with a post that describes the system, from turntable to speakers, and why you think the hum originates in the Reduction (i.e. what tests you have already done and their outcome). This will give us a good starting point. A photo showing the location of the components would be a help too.

[crackaddict]

Hi,

Rather than start a new thread, I just wanted to let any future readers know that my hum and buzz issues were NOT due the Reduction. I did some more troubleshooting and identified some setup issues (turntable grounding, poor stock phono cable, and signal cable routing issues). So all appears OK with my amp!

To return to the original thread, with a higher output cartridge and the Integration upgrade, the line level out of the Reduction is exactly where I expected it to be.

Thanks (and sorry for derailing this thread),
Derek