DIY Power conditioner

Thoburn · 12608

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Thoburn

  • Full Member
  • ***
    • Posts: 188
on: April 22, 2015, 03:58:09 PM
I don't know which forum topic this belongs in, so I posted here.

I have a Stereomour based system and have been wondering what a good power conditioner could do. I don't hear any noise between tracks. I have read that a good conditioner may give a 'better' sound and better imaging. I would like to build a conditioner as the commercial ones are stupid expensive! What are your thoughts and any recommendations on what to build?

Dynavector DV-20X2L > VPI Scout II > Musical Surroundings NovaPhonomena
Mac Mini > USB DACiTx
Stereomour > Lowther Medallion DX4 and Rythmic Subs
Monster Power HTS3600


4krow

  • Guest
Reply #1 on: April 22, 2015, 07:36:36 PM
When power conditioners work as advertised they are great. In my case, I would look for a used PS Audio P300 or P500. Then  go in and re-cap them all the way through. For about $600, I now am using a P500 that I really like. On the other hand, if I were going to build one from scratch, I would us a balanced isolation transformer in order to cancel out common mode noise. No doubt, I would consider an EMI filter as well. Also in the mix would be decent quality outlets. Notice I didn't say rediculously (please pardon my spelling) expensive outlets. I would be comfortable using 'Pro grade' outlets made by levington. Don't forget to use a quality power inlet. 



Offline Grainger49

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 7175
Reply #2 on: April 22, 2015, 11:51:57 PM
There are some schematics out there.  Paully and I built one, he builds I tell him where the wire comes from and goes to.  His was a simple filtering circuit.  It didn't make an appreciable difference in my system which already used an API Power Wedge.  When he got it home he didn't hear a difference. 

He now has a P500.  I have a P300 with the power caps upgraded to 160V rating (stock is 100V, but they have 110V on them).  That is a good reason to upgrade those.



Offline Thoburn

  • Full Member
  • ***
    • Posts: 188
Reply #3 on: April 24, 2015, 04:10:59 AM
There are some schematics out there.  Paully and I built one, he builds I tell him where the wire comes from and goes to.  His was a simple filtering circuit.  It didn't make an appreciable difference in my system which already used an API Power Wedge.  When he got it home he didn't hear a difference. 

He now has a P500.  I have a P300 with the power caps upgraded to 160V rating (stock is 100V, but they have 110V on them).  That is a good reason to upgrade those.


I found this one:

http://www.hagtech.com/pdf/conditioner.pdf

The part number does not exist on Mouser any more. But, this one might do the trick: 592-20EH6

It is a 120V 20A power line filter. It seems to me that the filter is only part of the solution. I think there needs to be some kind of heady duty transformer and some big a** capacitors.

Dynavector DV-20X2L > VPI Scout II > Musical Surroundings NovaPhonomena
Mac Mini > USB DACiTx
Stereomour > Lowther Medallion DX4 and Rythmic Subs
Monster Power HTS3600


Offline mcandmar

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 1599
  • Not all engineers are civil
Reply #4 on: April 24, 2015, 05:29:58 AM
Few very different concepts being discussed, here is what i have found as it may help.

Passive filtering: Really intended for EMI supression are those IEC filter box's as shown in your last link, found inside just about every computer power supply to prevent noise from back polluting the mains supply.  Really intended to filter out high frequencys caused by switching power supplies but can also be useful to filter out differential and common mode noise, i.e. if you hear clicks and pops as electrical devices around the house are switched on/off, these can remedy that issue.  Inside they are basically a CLC filter with a common mode choke.

I have built a few DIY versions, and recently bought a Belden Pure AV box which has a bunch of those filters side by side each feeding a bank of power outlets.  Theory being each outlet is isolated from each other, so you put noisy devices like TV's and set top box's on one channel, and analog audio sources on another etc.

Many people claim these filters are a bad thing for high current applications, i.e. big amplifiers that consume a few hundred watts.  Belden even have a "high current" channel on the far right with no chokes for that purpose.

Overall, none of the above will improve the sound of your system in any way unless you have a problem to start with, if you have nice clean mains, well thats as good as it can get.

(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcgim.audiogon.com%2Fi%2Frv%2Fs%2Ff%2F1164293595.jpg&hash=556d696136917579f05816c381f2a6f372278cab)

Active Filtering:  Or intelligent filtering like the PS Audio Power Plants Grainger mentioned are basically big amplifiers that recreate a nice symmetrical AC wave form.  For example my signature pic is actually a capture of mains power during the day, note the flat top and bottom of the AC waveform, a Power Plant in theory will correct that and recreate a nice sinusoidal wave form.  Why that matters i am not entirely sure.

Balanced Power:  I built a balanced AC supply a month or so back and i'm still testing/experimenting with it.  The unit i built has a a big 1kva toroid that takes 0-240v on the primary, and outputs 120v-0-120v on the secondary.  In theory it also has some filtering benefits as not all noise frequencies will pass through the transformer.  Main difference i have noticed are quieter running transformers down stream from it.  For example my F4 amp has a big 500va toroid which doesn't buzz half as loud running off the balanced power source, and the same it also true for the transformers in my valve amps.  Cant say for sure if the valve amps sound any better as i haven't done any measurements.

DC Filtering: Another topic that will arise searching for mains filtering, and something i had to implement into my balanced power supply.  If you have any DC offset in your mains it can cause transformers (specifically torioids) to saturate and hum.  In my case the F4 and balanced supply toroids used to growl angrily during the weekends.  I added a DC filter circuit via a big switch and sure enough it cures the noise when the need arises.

My current setup is the Pure AV box feeding the DAC's, computers, TV, set top box all on different channels.  High current channel then feeds into the balanced power supply box, which in turn feeds my F4 amp, S.E.X. amp, Preamp, and a couple of other valve amps.

M.McCandless


Offline Grainger49

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 7175
Reply #5 on: April 24, 2015, 05:49:17 AM
I searched Mouser, found a data sheet then a part number.  Try a 10VB6 (10A):

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/TE-Connectivity/10VB6/?qs=%2fha2pyFaduh7VHwm815HBcDddA8%252b%2fvEgTg0kyhPv4Oo%3d

The easiest thing is to spend the $16+shipping and just put a plug on the end of some wires and a dead front female on the output end.  You have to supply a ground from input to output (plugs).  Try it feeding your system to see if you want to construct a box for it.

Edit:  My P300 and the P500 are balanced power.  I've been inside them. 

Link to my post about the P300:

http://bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?topic=1372.msg9575#msg9575
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 06:00:31 AM by Grainger49 »



Offline Thoburn

  • Full Member
  • ***
    • Posts: 188
Reply #6 on: April 24, 2015, 04:39:21 PM
Thank you both for your detailed responses. Bottleheads are so generous with there knowledge. I think I'm going to try an inverter with a big battery. Will certainly post my impressions.

Dynavector DV-20X2L > VPI Scout II > Musical Surroundings NovaPhonomena
Mac Mini > USB DACiTx
Stereomour > Lowther Medallion DX4 and Rythmic Subs
Monster Power HTS3600


Offline Thoburn

  • Full Member
  • ***
    • Posts: 188
Reply #7 on: April 26, 2015, 04:05:11 PM
Thank you both for your detailed responses. Bottleheads are so generous with there knowledge. I think I'm going to try an inverter with a big battery. Will certainly post my impressions.

My phono stage runs off its own internal battery and the sub woofer amps probably wouldn't benefit. So, I want to try powering just my 2A3 Stereomour from an inverter. I've been trying to figure out how many watts the amp needs. Would a 375 watt inverter be enough?

Dynavector DV-20X2L > VPI Scout II > Musical Surroundings NovaPhonomena
Mac Mini > USB DACiTx
Stereomour > Lowther Medallion DX4 and Rythmic Subs
Monster Power HTS3600


Offline Grainger49

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 7175
Reply #8 on: April 27, 2015, 12:42:02 AM
I run my Foreplay 2, 2 Paramours and 2 Dungeness subs off my P300 (seems like there are more outlets used :o).  They draw 130W.  Plus the Eros itself draws about 75W additional. 

My worry is that the output of an inverter might not be a clean sine wave.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2015, 04:24:41 AM by Grainger49 »



Offline mcandmar

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 1599
  • Not all engineers are civil
Reply #9 on: April 27, 2015, 03:20:42 AM
If by inverter you mean one of those 12 DC to AC converters you use in a camper van, they are horribly noisy and like a cheap UPS system they wont output a pure sine wave. Avoid.

M.McCandless


Offline Grainger49

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 7175
Reply #10 on: April 27, 2015, 04:28:32 AM
Somewhere I posted the specs of my equipment, the power, current and power factor of each.  If that post survived the cull of dead topics in the last transition you and I could find what the Paramours draw, double for a Stereomour.  It is not much power.  The post was in Tech Topics.



Offline mcandmar

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 1599
  • Not all engineers are civil
Reply #11 on: April 27, 2015, 04:33:25 AM

M.McCandless


Offline Jim R.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 2194
  • Blind Bottlehead
Reply #12 on: May 18, 2015, 07:16:48 AM
I myself highly recommend a balanced power system, in particular, the ones made by Equitech. Yes, they're not cheap, but the good news is that the lowest price model -- Son of Q jr. -- is more than adequate for probably the majority of SET systems. Balanced power is particularly effective with SET based systems.

I had terrible power at my last place, and the Equitech cleaned it all up. Now in the new house, with much better power, still makes a very audible difference when it is inor out of the system.

I have owned or auditioned several of the other products mentioned in this thread, and the equitech does a better job by far. Note: your mileage may vary. Truly one of the best audio purchaes I have made.

Tom, as others mentioned, stay very far away from the 12v inverters -- they usually put out a square wave, which is bad for transformers, not to mention what it does to the sound. A true sine wave converter is what you'd want, but those are expensive, and signifantly more expensive if you want one with noise specs low enough to work with good audio gear -- which you certainly have.

Just my 2 cents...

-- Jim

Jim Rebman -- recovering audiophile

Equitech balanced power; uRendu, USB processor -> Musette DAC -> 5670 tube buffer -> Finale Audio F138 FFX -> Cain and Cain Abbys near-field).

s.e.x. 2.1 under construction.  Want list: Stereomour II

All ICs homemade (speaker and power next)


4krow

  • Guest
Reply #13 on: May 24, 2015, 06:05:33 PM
 I may have something to add here soon as my P500  has recently given me trouble. So much so, that I may decide to use the working parts to make an original power conditioner. Since I believe that the regenerating circuit/amp is having issues, I will probably go the way of using the balanced transformer along with the balun filter, and the power port AC outlets used in the unit. This could get interesting.



Offline Thoburn

  • Full Member
  • ***
    • Posts: 188
Reply #14 on: May 25, 2015, 01:18:17 PM
I myself highly recommend a balanced power system, in particular, the ones made by Equitech. Yes, they're not cheap, but the good news is that the lowest price model -- Son of Q jr. -- is more than adequate for probably the majority of SET systems. Balanced power is particularly effective with SET based systems.
Just my 2 cents...

-- Jim

A bit of serendipity to report. My brother in law Mike recently bought a used pair of Vandersteen model 3 Signature speakers and the guy through in a Monster Power HTS 3600 power conditioner. Mike already had one, so he gave it to me.  ;D I have to report that the bass is more articulate with more presents. The imaging has improved a bit and there is a little more clarity and detail. It is not a huge difference. Kind of on the scale of switching interconnects or a little more so. I am quite pleased with the results.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2015, 01:22:32 PM by Thoburn »

Dynavector DV-20X2L > VPI Scout II > Musical Surroundings NovaPhonomena
Mac Mini > USB DACiTx
Stereomour > Lowther Medallion DX4 and Rythmic Subs
Monster Power HTS3600