New Here: Just Ordered Stereomour!

[InfernoSTi]

I'm sure you're going to be floored at the sound with the upgraded tweeters and crossovers.

The SIOs will be even better at 50 hours and should be all  the way there by 200, though it seems at 100 you'll be most of the way there.

Looking forward to the report on the whole thing, especially after the tweeter and crossover upgrades.

Jim,

Thank you for the insight.  The SIOs seem a little tighter now than they did the first few hours...I'm pleased they will "bloom" around 50 hours because even a bit tight, they sound wonderful!   The tweeter/crossover upgrade is one I have been wanting but there was no use in going there until I made some further improvements to my system (from source to amp upgrades to room treatments).  I believe that it is best to bring the whole system up rather than going all in with one part of the system.  Now that I have a solid foundation, I will be able to appreciate and enjoy the "Sterling" upgrade even more.

I'm considering some 10" augies to put in an OB H-frame sub, though the temptation to go servo OB is pretty strong too.  These would be to augment my lowthers and/or zigmahornets and I want to stick with natural fiber cones.

I believe the Hawthorne Augies are one of the great bargains in audio today.  I would think you would be happy with them.  I'm using two Rythmik 370 plate amps in stereo and it is a real revelation in musical bass.  I really can't help out with the choice between an H OB or a Servo OB...I've only used regular OB with mine.

I think one of the questions is the nature of the bass from a 10" Augie compared to the 15" Augie. They are faster and detailed yet don't reach so deep and don't move as much air per unit.  Folks have had luck with a tower of 10's (four per side) where they gain both the extra speed and still move masses of air effortlessly.  

There is also discussion that placing the OB Augies up in the air couples with the room differently and produces a much more accurate double bass and other acoustic bass.  Others like myself go with two 15" Augies per side and really like the results.  If you are looking for speed and musicality, the 10" is a good choice.

Regarding your choice of the main speakers, the Augies blend very well with many speakers, as you know.  Here is a recent example of a project such as what you are thinking about, perhaps: http://www.hawthorneaudio.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4033

Good luck with your project...I know you will enjoy the journey.  And likewise, please post your results no matter what route you choose to follow!

John

[Jim R.]

Hi John,

Took a quick look at that thread and see that it is Randy Rash, who I've corresponded with in the past, especially about his Type 10 amp from Greenvalve.

I still have to figure out which speaker is going to go where in my house before I make any decisions on subs.  I generally don't like subs, but OB is another thing altogether.  I recently convinced my wife to let me move the office part of my office into another room, which means I can dedicate the existing office to a listening room, however, e ven though the room is 10.5' x 16.5', I really only have a 10.5' square with which to work, so I'm not sure how well an O
bB will work in that setup.  If it does, it will do so just barely and with the listening chair rght up against the back wall.

FYI, the GR-Research SA-1 plate amps also have the OB shelving filter and 20 hz HP filter and are intended for sealed or OB subs.

Danny is also now in production of the first run of his new 8" servo OB driver, alongwith a purpose designed amp from Brian Ding.  That may be the only setup that has a prayer of keepin up with the Lowthers (dx-55s with aluminum VCs and high-ferric).  I would probably also use a single enclosure with two drivers and place them between the mains, as I'm told this will not kill the soundstage as with other types of subs.

Anyway, getting a bit far O/T here, but I appreciate the links and I'll keep reading.

Wonder if anybody has ever built a full 10" trio -- seems like that would be really quick and articulate with decent enough bass for my small room.  Oh well, then I'm back to the question of whether the OBs will work in this room at all... :-)

Thanks again,

Jim

[ebag4]

I used the 2.7uF and 0.1uF caps, respectively.  They are significantly larger than the Auricaps but locating them was easy with the 0.1uF going below and in front and the 2.7uF going above and centered (a "hanging" cap location).  .  . 

John

Hi John,
I am glad to hear you are enjoying the Mundorfs.  I have to tell you that those cute little caps are not big, these are big:  .  .  . 

And I thought you were from Texas?? ;-D

Best,
Ed

John, Ed!  There is no use in arguing whose is/are bigger!

Sorry, I couldn't pass this up.

The higher the voltage rating and the larger the capacitance value the larger any design gets.  I'm impressed that the 1200V Mundorfs are that small.

Still, I like pictures of big caps.  Now it is your turn.

That will teach me not to drink and post! ;-)

Very funny Grainger!

Best,
Ed

[InfernoSTi]

Took a quick look at that thread and see that it is Randy Rash, who I've corresponded with in the past, especially about his Type 10 amp from Greenvalve.

It's a small world, this DIY audio hobby, thanks to the internet. Randy a great guy and very knowledgeable.  I'm glad you know him....

I still have to figure out which speaker is going to go where in my house before I make any decisions on subs.  I generally don't like subs, but OB is another thing altogether.  I recently convinced my wife to let me move the office part of my office into another room, which means I can dedicate the existing office to a listening room, however, e ven though the room is 10.5' x 16.5', I really only have a 10.5' square with which to work, so I'm not sure how well an OB will work in that setup.  If it does, it will do so just barely and with the listening chair rght up against the back wall.

I'm coming out of a 10'x13' listening room where I had to set up the short distance, too.  I found that I could get what I wanted better with OB than box, but I had to add a bunch of room treatments.  For me (and your milage may vary), I found a combination of diffusion and bass traps were necessary.  I placed a rear wall diffusor behind me listening chair that helped a little but if I had the space, a poly diffusor behind the chair would have helped tremendously, I believe.  I just didn't have the foot of depth needed to accomplish that.  I also found that a single front wall poly diffusor was very beneficial to the imaging with OB. 

Another item was pulling the speakers out much closer than I expected they would be.  The issue here is balancing the the front wall first reflection with the direct sound...in a small space you can get some fuzziness and when you find the sweet spot, it is like everything comes into focus.  I found equal distance between the listing chair and the front wall was needed in the 10' space. 

I used four 15" augies for a while in this room and it was wonderful.  I had lots of bass traps, however.  I had a bunch of Owens Corning 703 and a bunch of R-13 rolls in various configurations.  Once I tamed the bass a bit with the traps, the four augies were effortless and detailed.  Of course I was always playing at low levels given the room size (relatively speaking), so the added air movement really made an impact.  Just something to consider.

FYI, the GR-Research SA-1 plate amps also have the OB shelving filter and 20 hz HP filter and are intended for sealed or OB subs.

Danny is also now in production of the first run of his new 8" servo OB driver, alongwith a purpose designed amp from Brian Ding.  That may be the only setup that has a prayer of keepin up with the Lowthers (dx-55s with aluminum VCs and high-ferric).  I would probably also use a single enclosure with two drivers and place them between the mains, as I'm told this will not kill the soundstage as with other types of subs.

Danny and Brian are good guys and very helpful/knowledgeable.  I have other Danny designed speakers and of course the Rythmiks. I found that running my OB augies in stereo made a significant imaging difference, particularly with the drums, but also with other areas such as a double bass.  I think with OB the idea that bass isn't directional is a wrong.  I can A/B and always prefer the stereo set up.  You may want to consider this idea, as well.

Wonder if anybody has ever built a full 10" trio -- seems like that would be really quick and articulate with decent enough bass for my small room.  Oh well, then I'm back to the question of whether the OBs will work in this room at all... :-)

They current "best of class" with the 10" series is a Penta: four 10" augies per side with a 10" mid-woofer rounding out the five speakers.  See below (Jim, I've attached photos for folks to look at but will link you to the thread to read the build which will give you a good idea of the product here: http://www.hawthorneaudio.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3709 ).  I would think you would be very happy with 10" trios. 

And yes, we are bit O/T....

John

(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hawthorneaudio.com%2Fphotos%2Falbums%2Fuserpics%2F10978%2Fdsc03331ss.jpg&hash=95215aa010a3502ac0a2edb66f9fa13ca915d14d)

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[ebag4]

Those are my favorite Woodsage (Mike) build, I would love to hear them.

Best,
Ed

[Jim R.]

John,, and they work really well in this room.  When I've finished the lowthers and they're broken in, I'll compare them, and whoever wins, stays.

Now if I could only sell my cornwalls and upgrades I'd be a lot closer to being able to gt all this done.

Actually, your setup really does sound like it will be really pushing things as equidistant between front wall and listening position would put the left speaker in a really bad place.  This is actually a good thing to have realized, and yesterday I just decided that I'm going to keep my Tonian speakers, fix the drivers a bit, rewire them and replace the series inductor on the mid/woofer (which is more of a full range than anything else).  I love the sound of this speaker, especially with a 2a3

Also appreciate the info regarding stereo subs, so I'll definitely keep that in mind when and if that becomes necessary.  The V-2s, stereomour, Piano CD player and AudioGD dac with audiophilleo2 and linux music server box should be an excellent system and that will work great in the living room.  Nothing else to add -- subs are already part of the design as are the two sub amps.

All good stuff, and again, thanks for your advice and experience this has really helped me get on aclear path now.

-- Jim

[Jim R.]

Well, someho tat last message got butchered, but the upshot is that I'm holding on to my Tonian Labs TL-D1s for the listening room.  Then when I have the lowthers ready, then we'll see which pair stays.

Good stuff.

-- Jim

[InfernoSTi]

I tried a bit of tube rolling with the 12AT7: I had picked up a set of Telefunken 12AT7 (ECC81) tubes August 2010 but never tried one out in the Stereomour.  Now that I have 50+ hours on the Mundorf SIO caps (they have stopped their major fluctuations in sound and are settling in very nicely), it is time to roll a driver tube!

WOW!!!

That Telefunken is detailed, musical, light/airy, and quiet (no hum, whine, or microphonics). The emphasis with this tube is the upper mid-range and upper end.  The result is a lot of detail...crisp yet warm is the sound I would say.  If it were a color, I'd say silvery.  The cymbals sound amazing, as do horns and pianos.

The Telefunken is really a nice driver tube: it was recommended by Paully before I got the Stereomour and on his comment, I picked a set up last summer on Audiogon.  I am really pleased with how well it blends with the JJ/Tesla 2A3-40's and the Mundorf SIO caps.  This is really a pleasure to listen to this evening.

John

[ebag4]

Very cool to hear John.  I will be ordering the Pavane 12AT7 at the end of the week when the folks from Grant Fidelity return from the California show(s).  I am anxious to hear what other driver tubes do in the Stereomour, and with it requiring only a single tube it makes it quite cost effective to try a few.

Enjoy!

Ed

[InfernoSTi]

Very cool to hear John.  I will be ordering the Pavane 12AT7 at the end of the week when the folks from Grant Fidelity return from the California show(s).  I am anxious to hear what other driver tubes do in the Stereomour, and with it requiring only a single tube it makes it quite cost effective to try a few.

Enjoy!

Ed

Well, I have to give props to Ed.  The Pavane 12AT7-T is better than my Telefunken.  The first hour was very bright but after only 5+ hours, they are much more balanced, musical, and really, really extended (bass and upper end).  Detail is more dynamic and everything sounds "richer" than before. I guess Ed knows what he is talking about after all....   (Just messing, Ed. I really appreciate the tip.  This Stereomour just keeps getting better and better!)

EDIT: the tube is still "burning in" so it has gone through some nice times and also some times with a bit of glare/harshness. I'll report back after 50+ hours of use when I imagine the tube will have settled into whatever it's general character will be. And then I will try my Telefunken again to see what that sounds like "new" again. 

John,

I'm sure you're going to be floored at the sound with the upgraded tweeters and crossovers.

I'm considering some 10" augies to put in an OB H-frame sub, though the temptation to go servo OB is pretty strong too.  These would be to augment my lowthers and/or zigmahornets and I want to stick with natural fiber cones.

TThe SIOs will be even better at 50 hours and should be all  the way there by 200, though it seems at 100 you'll be most of the way there.

Looking forward to the report on the whole thing, especially after the tweeter and crossover upgrades.

-- Jim

Jim,

I PM'ed you on another forum but thought I would post my new horns/crossovers information here.  Things are sounding really, really good here in Texas thanks to Bottlehead, Hawthorne Audio, and all the tips on tubes and caps from the forum!

The Radians and new crossovers are stunning!  It is as if I have a whole new stereo system and I can't stop listening...much more detail and much smoother.  Now just about anything sounds good and well recorded/mastered tracks sound amazing. All "natural" sounding if that makes sense.

The upper end is now much flatter and more extended. The tones are natural but it took me a while to get used to a flatter response.  The old horns had a big bump at 2K Hz that really gave a strong "clank" to the sound of cymbals...it is surprising what you get used to hearing.  Now that I've had over a month on these, I couldn't imagine going back.  

The bass is tighter and more musical. So good that I started to get into a new round of room treatments to see how much I could get out of the bass from the Stereomour and Hawthorne SSIs.  Those four 15" Augies in stereo really sound nice with the hardwire connection from the crossovers.  A big improvement in an unexpected place.

Here are the crossovers with Alpha Core foil inductors and Mundorf Silver In Oil caps (BIG-UNS!!!):
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hawthorneaudio.com%2Fphotos%2Falbums%2Fuserpics%2F10003%2FP5260050.jpg&hash=d22e422a6054f6a261e2c2fbb880255865b36336)  (https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hawthorneaudio.com%2Fphotos%2Falbums%2Fuserpics%2F10003%2FP5260051.jpg&hash=4054b1975d4f08b22bbbeb5aef1d34838655a502)

Cheers,
John

[ebag4]

I guess Ed knows what he is talking about after all....  

Let's not jump the gun John! ;-)

I am glad you are enjoying the Pavane.  I didn't have much to compare it to so I am happy to hear that it bests the Tele.. 

Best,
Ed

[InfernoSTi]

My latest move is to do the opposite of what Ed is doing, this time!  While Ed just installed his volume pot, I just bypassed my volume pot and used high quality 100K Kiwame resistors in it's place (the cool looking light green carbon ones). I placed them at the RCA inputs.

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It sounds really nice to me...a little more dynamic and a little more clear, the combination of both means I'm enjoy music very much right now and even heard some new things I've never heard before in the background of my Cowboy Junkies "Long Journey Home Live."  Now I'm enjoying Bill Evans Trio "Waltz for Debby" in 96/24.

This is a nice little tweak that cost me a short evening of fun and a couple of bucks in parts.  Well recommended if you have the ability to use a different volume control.  I'm going to be trying the Warpspeed Optocoupler (info on DIYAudio and AudioCircle) which is why I needed to make this quick mod. Even without the new passive pre, I'm liking the mod.  Those Kiwame's match up nicely with the Mundorf Silver/Oil: my BH Stereomour is sounding soft/refined yet detailed/dynamic.

Cheers,
John

[ebag4]

Hi John,
Initially I didn't think I heard much of a trade off when I removed my 100K Caddocks and replaced them with the Alps pot.  After more listening I determined that I did loose a bit of clarity.  Unfortunately I don't have another volume control right now (I built an LDR but can't get rid of a hum issue so I don't use it).  I am considering getting a high quality ladder type volume control and see how that works out. 

I thought I might be able to adjust my resistor value and simply use the digital control in MPD for small changes but what I have found is that there is too much variance in the sound levels of of different albums, this means I require some level of adjust-ability in the analog domain so that I can limit the amount of digital adjustment used (less digital adjustment=better sound quality).

I will be interested to read your impressions of the Warpspeed.

Best,
Ed

[InfernoSTi]

Hi John,
Initially I didn't think I heard much of a trade off when I removed my 100K Caddocks and replaced them with the Alps pot.  After more listening I determined that I did loose a bit of clarity.  Unfortunately I don't have another volume control right now (I built an LDR but can't get rid of a hum issue so I don't use it).  I am considering getting a high quality ladder type volume control and see how that works out.  

I thought I might be able to adjust my resistor value and simply use the digital control in MPD for small changes but what I have found is that there is too much variance in the sound levels of of different albums, this means I require some level of adjust-ability in the analog domain so that I can limit the amount of digital adjustment used (less digital adjustment=better sound quality).

I will be interested to read your impressions of the Warpspeed.

Best,
Ed

Ed,

I'm very happy with my initial impressions of volume pot bypassing with the Kiwame's.  My solution with the adjustable volume on the DAC is good but I hope I prefer the Warpspeed. That being said, I'm sure there are many ways to skin the cat.  

One avenue to explore may be "floating point" control of your DAC.  I could be wrong, but recall it addresses the issue you identify.  I will try to find a link and edit that in if I can.  I will keep looking, but initially this is a brief description of what I am trying (poorly) to reference:

If Decibel's Exclusive Access Mode is enabled and the DAC supports integer input (footnote 2), Decibel will now send audio to the DAC as integers. Although audio files are stored as integers (whole numbers), a Mac internally converts audio data to 32-bit floating-point data, which allows mathematical processing (such as volume control and equalization). The floating-point data are reconverted to16- or 24-bit integer, as appropriate, before being sent to an audio device. Decibel's Integer Mode sends the unprocessed data straight to the device.

Another is to use a stepped attenuator rather than a volume pot.  This will have a more direct signal path (again, if I recall correctly...there has been a lot of discussion on this Forum about that topic).

The Warpspeed has received two positive reviews from fellow Hawthorne Audio users on AudioCircle (Gooberdude and Johnnycopy).  Perhaps I will have comments for you as early as November.  

Cheers,
John

[Jim R.]

Hey John and Ed,

Thanks for keeping us in the loop on your experiments -- all sounds good and especially in the aftermath of RMAF, I'm really anxious to get back on this project, so... soon, very soon.  Got a few more bits to do in te shop and then the rest should just be wiring and mechanical assembly (as opposed to the woodwork, top plate prep, plating, painting, etc.

Ed, you may want to look into the goldpoint mini-v stepped attenuator -- it's not a ladder type, but the resistors it uses are very, very nice, as are the sealed Elma, swiss made hard gold switch contacts, all of which adds up to something that should be really, really close to a ladder type.  Certainly a lot cheaper than a DACT too.

I recently found a pair of what so far has been my favorite 12at7 -- the 1950s Raytheon triple mica black plate types, so I've added those to my collection, including some teles and others, though another buddy of mine has had remarkable results with the psvanes in his gear, so I may jus have to try those too.

And Ed, your new dac definitely supports integer mode with PureMusic, but since you're running the linux box, I'm pretty sure MPD doesn't have integer mode capability, at least as of yet.

My Mac Mini is now off getting it's final frontier mod -- conversion to DC power, and will run off a sealed lead acid type battery with the Pi battery buss, which will also power the external firewire drive.  That should be interesting indeed.

-- Jim