Reduction Too Quiet

tjessen · 8935

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline tjessen

  • Jr. Member
  • **
    • Posts: 29
  • Reduction/Crack/Quickie
Reply #15 on: September 22, 2014, 07:16:56 AM
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 07:41:34 AM by tjessen »

Trent Rosa


Offline Grainger49

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 7175
Reply #16 on: September 22, 2014, 09:45:35 AM
It sounds like your system has enough gain.  Not knowing where the mispacked caps go I can't answer if they are drawing down the volume.  I'm sure someone else will let you know.



Offline tjessen

  • Jr. Member
  • **
    • Posts: 29
  • Reduction/Crack/Quickie
Reply #17 on: September 22, 2014, 10:37:38 AM
It sounds like your system has enough gain.  Not knowing where the mispacked caps go I can't answer if they are drawing down the volume.  I'm sure someone else will let you know.

The caps are for signal filtering/equalization, so I assume so.

Trent Rosa


Offline Grainger49

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 7175
Reply #18 on: September 22, 2014, 10:50:52 AM
The Reduction RIAA equalization, like the Eros and Seduction, is between the first and second stage.  It sends frequency selective signals to ground.  With too large a value it might send so much that your volume is compromised. 



Offline Paul Birkeland

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 19395
Reply #19 on: September 24, 2014, 05:07:38 PM
Woah golly, yeah, 0.2uF instead of 0.01uF is going to cause all sorts of problems!

Thanks for popping your name on your signature.  When we see threads like this on the forum and it's obvious that a care package is necessary, we can just pop it out without asking 20 questions or waiting for an official request.

(Also, if the gain is still too low with the correct EQ, the Integration will raise the gain a bit)

-PB

Paul "PB" Birkeland

Bottlehead Grunt & The Repro Man


Offline tjessen

  • Jr. Member
  • **
    • Posts: 29
  • Reduction/Crack/Quickie
Reply #20 on: October 09, 2014, 01:07:58 PM
So I received my replacement capacitors in the mail today, and with them installed the Reduction is much louder. I send thanks to everyone who assisted me! However, normally listening volume with my reduction plugged into my Crack has me turning the potentiometer to max. Is this normal? If so what do you guys recommend I do to boost the volume. I feel the integration upgrade will not raise the gain enough. Will a preamp do the trick?

Trent Rosa


Offline Paul Joppa

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 5779
Reply #21 on: October 09, 2014, 01:51:50 PM
I hate to suggest this, it will become a can of worms :^) - but rewiring the Crack for a 6922 in place of the 12AU7 would give nearly 6dB more gain. Add the 4dB from the Integration and you would have 10dB, about 80 degrees of knob rotation. Speedball should add a bit of gain to the Crack as well, I'm not sure how much.

The technical part is that the 6922 runs at the same plate current, plate voltage, and bias (LED) as the 12AU7. This is an unusual coincidence!

Paul Joppa


Offline fullheadofnothing

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 1487
  • A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man
Reply #22 on: October 09, 2014, 01:56:29 PM
How much music have you listened to with it? How many different records have you tried? Mastering levels will vary greatly; if you've only listened to one quietly mastered record, you could be skewing your results.

Joshua Harris

I Write the Manuals That Make The Whole World Sing
Kit Packer Emeritus


Offline Chris65

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
    • Posts: 341
Reply #23 on: October 09, 2014, 03:20:11 PM
The stock Crack 12AU7 uses a 6.3V heater, the heater wiring would need to be changed to use a 6922.

I hate to suggest this, it will become a can of worms :^) - but rewiring the Crack for a 6922 in place of the 12AU7 would give nearly 6dB more gain.
The technical part is that the 6922 runs at the same plate current, plate voltage, and bias (LED) as the 12AU7. This is an unusual coincidence!

Not to open the can of worms too much PJ ;D, but would pin9 be used for a 6922?

So I received my replacement capacitors in the mail today, and with them installed the Reduction is much louder. I send thanks to everyone who assisted me! However, normally listening volume with my reduction plugged into my Crack has me turning the potentiometer to max. Is this normal? If so what do you guys recommend I do to boost the volume. I feel the integration upgrade will not raise the gain enough. Will a preamp do the trick?

Hi Trent, good to hear you got it fixed. I found with the stock Reduction, I was getting to about 2o'clock on the volume on my Crack+Speedball into 250Ω Beyers. Adding the Integration bought that back to nearer 12o'clock on the volume knob, so a noticeable increase in gain.



Offline tjessen

  • Jr. Member
  • **
    • Posts: 29
  • Reduction/Crack/Quickie
Reply #24 on: October 09, 2014, 03:41:15 PM
I do not have the budget required to order the integration at the moment, so would the re-wire provide enough gain? Also what are some recommendations on 6922s?

Trent Rosa


Offline tjessen

  • Jr. Member
  • **
    • Posts: 29
  • Reduction/Crack/Quickie
Reply #25 on: October 09, 2014, 03:45:02 PM
Also, I still wish to use my Crack with my DAC, and i listen within 90 degrees of silent. Will I get enough control in my volume with the 6922?

Trent Rosa


Offline Paul Birkeland

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 19395
Reply #26 on: October 09, 2014, 04:18:58 PM
Also, I still wish to use my Crack with my DAC, and i listen within 90 degrees of silent. Will I get enough control in my volume with the 6922?

I've built a Crack a long, long time ago using a 6922.  The gain was overwhelming with any modern source components I had.

The Speedball and Integration will give you some additional headroom. 

-PB

Paul "PB" Birkeland

Bottlehead Grunt & The Repro Man


Offline tjessen

  • Jr. Member
  • **
    • Posts: 29
  • Reduction/Crack/Quickie
Reply #27 on: October 09, 2014, 04:32:25 PM
I've got the speedball, I may consider a preamp in my system. Any suggestions? I'm thinking of straying away from tubes though :/

Trent Rosa


Offline Paul Joppa

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 5779
Reply #28 on: October 09, 2014, 06:09:21 PM
The 6922 mod is not complicated; just wire the heater power to pins 4 and 5 instead of 4/5 and 9 for the 12AU7. The other pins (1,2,3,6,7,8) remain the same. Leave pin 9 floating. Once done, the 6AU7 is a drop-in replacement for the 6922, if you want to compare over the long term.

However, the 6922 has a greater need for caution about oscillation; I would use grid and plate stoppers as in the Reduction - of course I AM a very cautious engineer! It will make about as much difference as Integration and Speedball combined, at the cost of an inch or two of solder plus a 6922 or 6DJ8. If you try it, use any old 6922 or 6DJ8 available cheap; if you then like it you can explore better tubes for the fun of it. I did tell you it's a can of worms, didn't I?

The mismatch of analog and digital loudness is a very frustrating problem, which has come up now and then ever since the original Seduction 12 years ago. In theory, and with well-recorded music as documented in the professional audio literature, and compared to digital sources that follow the Redbook standards, Reduction should make about the same loudness level as digital sources. Far too often this does not seem to be the case, and I do not have enough data available to me to determine why. Here is a short list of the three most plausible explanations:

1. The phonograph recording is made at a substantially lower "maximum VU" level than the standard 5cm/sec velocity

2. The digital full-scale (FS) output exceeds the Redbook standard of 2.0 volts RMS

3. The digital recording is more aggressively compressed than the phonograph recording

There is a lot of ranting on the web about excessively compressed digital audio, but I've never seen a good statistical analysis to quantify the problem so I can't say if that's the main issue or not. As I said, very frustrating for an engineer!

Paul Joppa


Offline fullheadofnothing

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 1487
  • A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man
Reply #29 on: October 09, 2014, 07:20:13 PM
However, normally listening volume with my reduction plugged into my Crack has me turning the potentiometer to max. Is this normal?

The position of the volume knob really doesn't matter. When you turn it up all the way, is that below the volume you would like to listen at? If so, then there's a problem to address. If not, just listen and move on. Also you never said if you had tried different records. Since you've had it running for less than a day, it's unlikely that you've spent many hours listening to a variety of music.

Have you used your current cartridge setup with other phono preamps? Have you used your Reduction in any other systems besides the Crack? It's possible that your Reduction still has an issue. One way of testing would be to download a 60Hz tone, adjust your computer's output to be exactly 5mV, then feed it into the Reduction and measure the output with your meter set to VAC. That could tell if something is still amiss.

Furthermore, you've never said what headphones you are using. Is this possibly a non-ideal situation?


Joshua Harris

I Write the Manuals That Make The Whole World Sing
Kit Packer Emeritus