Bottlehead Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Doc B. on February 18, 2012, 06:19:28 PM
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I have to brag a bit. Amongst the myriad projects that need to be refurbished in our 1941 vintage house is the water system. We had a crappy, shallow well that started pulling sand in the early 80's. At that point we hooked up to our neighbor's well which is something like 1000 feet deep, but full of equally crappy, sulfurous, rusty (but not sandy) Kitsap County water. Reality has set in that we have essentially four adults here now who are vying for shower water every day, and our water heater struggles to keep up. I just found a 2 year old $1000 80 ga. water heater for $100, that I will pick up tomorrow and install with a decent filtration system ahead of it. Which got me thinking about the old one that we have been demanding more than it can give for the past 25 years. A long bout of googling turned up that our GE Deluxe Automatic electric water heater is from about 1951.
Amazing.
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That is amazing. I doubt that the 50 gallon GE I put in 3 years ago will make a total of 10 years ... on city water. Of course it's Florida and I dont have a softener. Still, I doubt it would make it much past 10 or 15 years at best. The one it replaced kept burning up the thermostat every couple of years until I removed the insulating "blanket".
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So there is no new technology in amplifiers being announced here. Before I clicked on the link I momentarily wondered if you could put very hot water or stream through a thin tube that would drive off sufficient electrons.
Which brought up another thought. Have there ever been water cooled tube amps?
ray
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Water cooled tube amp? For some strange reason that phrase gives me flashbacks to my college days. Doc, I installed a tankless water heater this year, very happy with it, our gas bill went down considerably. My neighbor installed one but he isn't saving anything. They have kids, ( I don't), the kids started taking hour long showers because they never run out of hot water. I think it has actually cost them more.
Cheers,
Shawn
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Ray P. -- yes, I've seen at least one statically water cooled tube amp. It was at RMAF at least a couple of times, but I don't recall the company who made it, but it was a pair of single-ended 305 transmitter tubes in what looked like an aquarium on top of the amp. Not cheap, pretty amazing sound as I recall, but sort of gave me the willies thinking about how it could fail
Lots of radio transmitters are water cooled too.
When I worked at the Princeton Plasma Physics labe, we had some custom made 350 pound pentodes that were used for voltage regulators/modulators for 120kv, 100A continous DC power supplies and they had integral water cooling and then sat in a fiberglass tank of SF6 for dielectric.
-- Jim
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Water cooled tube amp? . . .
Cheers,
Shawn
I worked on a welder at Alcoa with a water cooled tube rectifier. You aren't making things up.
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Wow, I guess I'm new to the game of home ownership. I'm also used to the mineral laced water here in the Bay Area but that's amazing that a water heater could last that long!
Everybody I've talked to around here expects to replace theirs every 10 years or so.
A little closer to stuff I do know about,..
http://vongaylordaudio.com/beta/unisea/
I think I first saw their fluid cooled amps back at the Stereophile show in the mid 90's.
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Dan,
With the minerals in the water and the long years of service how much of the 50 gallons was used up by sediments?
That is quite a score on the new tank.
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Yeah, that's what I wonder. It has been drained a few times and surprisingly little goo came out, just rusty water. But I have a hunch the capacity might have shrunk to more like 30 gallons as the encrustation has built up. Just got back from picking up the new/used heater. Looks to be pretty young. Now I gotta figure out a whole lot of reconfiguring of the plumbing that should have been done years ago. We still have the pressure tank from the old well on the water line, pipes are all galvanized, need to put in proper ground rods for electrical (which I think was grounded to the water pipes) and double check electrical bonding of all inlets and outlets, etc., etc. Then get and install water softener, then install water heater, then find new washer and dishwasher, as everything is at least 25 years old. Gonna tackle it a piece at a time.
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hello doc,
Saw your post and thought I'd through my 2 cents in as I used to do this kind of work. Galvanized pipe that old is surely restricting flow and I'm sure you realize now is the time for a copper re-pipe. If you do it a piece at a time everything after the filter should be copper and any copper to galvanized connection should be separated by a dielectric union or a 6" length of brass pipe. Both do a decent job of controlling electrolysis, although my experience suggests the brass pipe is more effective. A lot of unions are cheap plated steel and can be difficult to install properly. I suspect you will be having this work done by a contractor, have them check the supply pipe from the well and replace any gate valves with ball valves. Good luck with your project!
John
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Wow, thanks John! I plan at this point to do most of the work myself. Luckily the flow seems really good out of all of the faucets (like "stand back!") and static pressure is right at 70 psi. Tested the water last night and it looks quite good, fairly soft, slightly basic, fairly high alkalinity, no iron, copper,nitrates or chlorine. It appears that the problems we are having are related almost entirely to rust bacteria.
I didn't know about using 6" brass pipe as a sub for the dielectric union, that's a great help. I really didn't want to hassle with replacing galvanized pipe with galvanized pipe, but I'm concerned that some of our our old wiring might be grounded to the plumbing and I'd like to play it safe in terms of electrical bonding. We have neat old textured plaster over lath walls in the house and really don't want to tear them up to replace all of the pipes. But I can certainly redo all the exposed piping from the cold water inlet to the heater and out of the heater with copper. My neighbor who owns the water company we are supplied by reconnected us from our crappy well to his water supply 30 years ago. Left the pressure tank in the system ( I suspect that and the old heater are a veritable metropolis of rust bacteria), failed to bond the galvanized inlet pipes on either side of a plastic union, left unsupported runs of over 10 feet long, water filter hanging sideways, etc, etc. Now that I have studied the code I can say that I wish he had too!
As an aside I just installed one of those dual flush thingies in one of our toilets. Interesting gadget, one button flushes only part way for #1 and there is a second button for launching #2 with added vigor. The #1 setting is a little hit and miss, but it does seem like it should save water. Also took the straightforward approach to conservation and put a 1 gal jug of water in the tank.
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Doc;
If you have textured plaster you might want to check for asbestos before you do any opening or removing. A lot of plasters from that time had asbestos in the mix. I don't know the building codes for the US but up here most contractors would not touch the job without asbestos testing because they could not get a building permit without the testing. If it is present then they have have it professionally removed before starting any work.
Cheers;
Mike
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Mike is right except that if it is not friable it poses no danger. That is why opening it up poses the problem.
And then Dan probably already knows that.
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Thanks guys, as I said I don't plan to take any pipes out of the plastered walls. The water heater and supply line entry are in the basement and exposed, so I plan to just redo some of that and worry about the pipes past the water heater later.
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All the "rust bacteria" and hardened sediment is probably what is holding the thing together after all these years... :)
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Yeah, there's a lot of stuff like that around this house. Hate to disturb it for fear it will disintegrate. I mapped out the old pressure tank removal and its replacement with a whole house filter system last night. Colin gets to help me wrench all the old pipe apart and get that monstrous steel tank out between some studs. I bet he's wishing he didn't have the next few days off from work.
Too many projects. When I get this plumbing stuff finished it's back to sanding the stairway to our bedroom. Spent a few weekends with a scraper and heat gun to get off the battleship gray paint and still have a few hours work with some 60 grit to go. Gonna be worth it, very nice old VG fir treads underneath the paint.
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That is the charm (and curse) of a vintage house... An incredible amount of work, but like your Hammond, when you are finished... The house has that incredible vintage character as well as your signature in it.... You just cannot buy something like that new today... As you obviously know... Great job...
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Yeah, it's got that classic Poulsbo white trash run down farmhouse air about it. We're a bit upscale though, I've always made sure the stalled car in the driveway is an old Mercedes, and the old boat sitting in the yard is a wood one.
In other news on Bainbridge where the beautiful people live our upscale office is finally getting repairs completed from the flood that happened over two months ago. We hope to be open to visitors again by the end of the month.
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Dan,
You are in "High Cotton" there. Here in the South you would need a washing machine and old tires painted white in the front yard. Not to mention several dogs under the front porch.
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Wow, I haven't heard "High Cotton" is a looong time!
Reminds me of a farmer in my home town (Stone Mountain Georgia) that folks kinda hated so they'd dump old appliances and stuff in his fields.
He put up a bunch of signs that said "Danger Mines!" on them. Of course everybody knew there weren't any so they made sure to pile as much as they could right under those signs!
Just wanted to tell Dan to be sure and wear some kind of dust mask when he sands those treads and kicks. Back in the day, they used to use a lot of epoxy paints for floors and stairs. Dust from that crap is nasty stuff (like nerve damage nasty) so you don't wanta be breathing any more than you have to.
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Dan,
You are in "High Cotton" there. Here in the South you would need a washing machine and old tires painted white in the front yard. Not to mention several dogs under the front porch.
The dogs under the porch are me and Col. That's where the water supply line comes in. By 4:00 we have everything done except plumbing in the water filter. My vote for tool of the year goes to the 22" pipe wrench I bought. Few whacks with a hammer on the joints as a prep and that big mutha wrench made child's play of the 70 y.o. crusty connections.
@ironbut - I have an orbital sander with a vacuum cleaner attachment. Makes a huge difference in how much dust flies around. Not really that much paint left, most all of it was heated and scraped off. Man, did that stink, funky old floor paint and foam rubber backing from the scary carpet that had been on there since the 70s. Today under the porch I opened up an old well pump motor control box and an army of those shiny black spiders that look like black widows but without the hourglass poured out. Good thing Shawn isn't here, he woulda fainted. I just stomped the little monsters. But I'm saying this old house stuff can cause nightmares...
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Dan,
You would have made Tim "the tool man" Taylor very happy -- more power, bigger wrench, bigger hammer, etc.
Spiders didn't bother me -- when I could see them. Notw they freak me out, especially since one of my fellow transplant patients died after a brown recluse bite. And colorado is crawling with black windows.
-- Jim
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I have one bit of advice to offer after this loooong project to rework our cold water inlet. The old schoolers say to use pipe dope on galvanized pipe. Home Depot says use Teflon tape. So I think, "those old dudes know of whence they speak, to heck with Home Depot", and I buy some high zoot Teflonized pipe dope because they don't seem to make the old gray goo that I knew as a kid. The Teflon dope is utterly useless crap. We spent an extra hour or two taking apart and redoing 8 or 10 leaky, messy Teflon doped joints with Teflon tape, which of course we all know works great. I have a few more to redo tomorrow. So don't buy Teflon pipe dope. Use Teflon tape - unless you're the kind of person who enjoys building one of our kits with plumbing solder and acid flux...
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"Don't force it - get a bigger hammer!" That's what my dad always told me, anyhow. He also said "don't buy a tool until you actually need it - then buy a GOOD one." Words to live by.
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I 2nd your experience with teflon dope, had to retrofit all the plumbing in my house, it was built with that crappy gray poly pipe. After 4 or 5 years of expansion and contraction the gray crap fails, with devastating results. Tried the teflon dope on the new stuff, worthless, I tried to come up with some use for it, besides its intended purpose, couldn't think of anything.
Cheers,
Shawn
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Ahhh, I love the smell of "white trash run down farmhouse air" in the morning!.....Sorry, I borrowed that line from the movie "Apocalypse Cow!"........ "We're a bit upscale though, I've always made sure the stalled car in the driveway is an old Mercedes, and the old boat sitting in the yard is a wood one" Holy cow!..YOU were my neighbor growing up! :) and yes, you are correct... if there is a "highly sought after" collectible out there rusting in the yard, YES , that IS a sign of upscale class...hahaha.
"Here in the South you would need a washing machine and old tires painted white in the front yard. Not to mention several dogs under the front porch."..... uuhhh, He has that also, it is called the Muckleshoot Reservation not too far away.....
"Dust from that crap is nasty stuff (like nerve damage nasty) so you don't wanta be breathing any more than you have to."..... Yes, he is definitely correct, We dont want to be calling you "Doc Bobblehead"...
"But I'm saying this old house stuff can cause nightmares...".... That's why I had to add the word "curse" along with the charm of a vintage house... haha... I would've freaked with the spiders also!!!
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Wow. Ive had good luck with the Rectorseal T plus 2 pipe thread sealant. Used it on both copper and pvc. I havent dont a whole house with it or a long run. But on the here and theres, no problems. Has worked great and held up for years. But I do reach for the teflon tape most often.
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Another interesting observation - when I tested our water it measured as rather soft. After reading all sorts of horror stories implying that my 70 YO galvanized pipes were going to be corroded to the point of having a pin hole down the center, I checked the old pipe we pulled off when we removed the old pressure tank. Aside from a very light coating of rust slime (damned rust bacteria!) the pipes look very clean inside. I had suspected this because the pipes to the second floor bathroom that had been installed in the 50s or 60s are clear enough that the old faucet up there will blast you if you aren't careful. So you can't really make sweeping generalities about how galvanized pipe will hold up over time. This may have something to do with our 1950s water heater holding up all these years. As far as I can tell it wouldn't be that useful to tear the house apart and replace the existing pipe.
That rotten mud sill under the front porch that I discovered when working on the plumbing is a different story...the fun never ends.
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Unless you've planned (and budgeted) a balls to the wall remodel, I'd stick with the "if it don't stink,.." advice.
Of course, plumbing is one area of construction that I really don't know what I'm talking about but I have had to blend in patches on all types of walls and ceilings and doing a nice job isn't trivial.
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Heres one for a good laugh;
Many years ago I neighbour of mine decided to upgrade his fixtures (taps, shower etc). He was one of those types who knew everything and would never ask for help or advice. So off he went to the hardware store and came back with bags of parts including new pipe and related fixtures. He apparently knew earthing except how to read. He decided that solder paste would work better and be less messy so off he went cutting out pipe and replacing it and the related fixtures. He cleaned all the parts and joints and applied the paste and flux and fit all the joints together just perfectly. The only problem was he thought paste solder was self-curing and did not need to be heated. He thought that it was like a glue which set up overnight. You can just imagine what happened next - the next morning he turned the water supply back on and proceeded to create a multi-floor indoor pool. It was only then that he accepted our offer for help. That's when we realized he didn't even have a soldering torch! We had him up and dry in the space of the morning.
The only dope he had problems with was the one in the mirror.
Cheers;
Mike
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As is often the case in DIY..... Each dollar saved in DIY is another 5 dollars for the Professional to fix when you are finished "di*king" around.... Not in all cases , of course...
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OK, it's sad when someone is showing you pictures of his new water heater, I admit. But I thought I would follow up. Last week we completed removing the old pressure tank and we have a very nice whole house water filter in its place. Yesterday Col helped me wrangle the old water heater out and we wrestled the new 80 gallon job into place along with a cold water shutoff, expansion tank and power disconnect to bring it up to 21st century code. Still a few minor things to finish like electrical bonding, an earthquake strap and some drain work, but it works. This has been done when I am not working here six days a week catching up on orders. All galvanized pipe, a LOT of wrenching. I be tired, very tired. Time for a hot bath...
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It's gorgeous!
Nice goin' mate.
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And a cocktail.
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Hey, I tried the "you wanna see some pictures of my new water heater?" on a girl I liked at a club one time.... It didnt work too well, not sure why...
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Yeah, I think showing a girl your plumbing in a bar is probably illegal in most places anyway. Wasn't that an episode of Cops?
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Hahaha, oh man, now you know what I look like!....Next time I am on COPS, I will try to wear a BOTTLEHEAD shirt to help spread the good word.. :) ..... and it is equally sad when we are complimenting you back on your water heater , HOWEVER, give credit where it is due, yes, that is a very nice water heater and a GREAT upgrade for your vintage house project, congrats :)