Bottlehead Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: RayP on August 26, 2012, 05:49:59 AM
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It looks like our next meet will be at Steve's place in Sterling VA on the last weekend in October (27 or 28). The details are still being confirmed and we may be in the local community hall but keep the date in mind.
I have been following a thread about speaker wires that has been interesting.
http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,3232.0.html (http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,3232.0.html)
The topic has inspired us to have a speaker wire comparison day to see what factors really matter.
My initial thoughts are that each of us who brings cables will bring two pair of cables. They will need to be exactly the same except for one parameter.
For example, same copper, same gauge, same topology, same length, different insulation. We would then do a blind test to see if we can hear a difference.
This is not a competition to see who has the best cables. For example, the other thread mentioned barbed wire so I started to wonder about it. I will be bringing a pair of ordinary copper wire cables. I will also bring another pair of cables that are exactly the same except there will be barbs on them to lift them above the floor. Will we hear a difference? I don't have a clue but we will find out. Will they sound like crap, quite possibly, but will one pair sound crappier than the other?
We will specify the length of cable when the listening venue is established. We will also specify how the termination is to be done in case we do want to do further comparisons. I am leaning towards no termination at all, just bare wire(s) but am open to suggestions.
Any ideas or points that I have forgotten will be welcome.
ray
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An inspired quest, no doubt. One suggestion, take some pix and post results here.
John
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I second that! Upload some video to youtube as well. Lets get this debate over with! Once and for all!
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Let me be sure I'm understanding... would an option be to make a braided type of cable, but one uses 18 gauge wires and one uses 22 gauge? Or how about one pair is 6 feet long and one pair is 12 feet long?
What about having a wildcard division where there is no mate... I was going to make some speaker cables a while ago, but never got around to putting them together, but I don't have enough supplies for two pairs?
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I think both of your examples (gauge and length) would be exactly what we are looking for. The basic principle is change just one parameter and see if we can hear a difference. For your special cables, we could try them after the comparisons.
To minimize duplication of effort, start thinking about the parameter you wish to compare and announce it so that somebody else doesn't pick it.
Mine is going to be steel barbed wire compared to steel barbed wire with the barbs removed (if I can actually do it). I'm hoping I can get the wire from the local Lowes, if not I will have to go to one of the local upscale specialty hardware shops.
I might also try to make a copper barbed wire cable to see if the steel sounds different from the copper. Sorry, there will be no silver barbed wire.
I have not decided how I will get around the insulation problem.
For those asking for a writeup, we usually post photos and a description of our meets. Perhaps one of our attendees (not me) can do the video.
ray
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At one time there was an audio fashion for "air dielectric" meaning the speaker wires were spaced with wooden sticks, about 6 inches long, every couple feet or so. Popsicle sticks or tongue depressors for example. Much cheaper than ceramic high-voltage standoffs!
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Since I have a bunch of popsicle sticks left over from building my H frame horns I was thinking of doing what you suggested. Is there a capacitance issue?
ray
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Wow concertina speaker cable, half tweak, half security system. I think, rather then buying it. You should sneak into your local prison or military facility and steal it 8)
I once made a version of the braided Cat 5, that left my fingers bleeding. I would compare it to a version using the very same wire but only a few strands per cable.
I have a pair of the generic Woods extension cord made up, which judging by the meets I have been to is as close to a standard as I have seen...John
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Or you could go with the current rage ie. the 'cotton dielectric', by wrapping the barbed wire in some old t-shirts, socks etc.
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Has anyone compared cotton insulation with "naked"?
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Wow concertina speaker cable, half tweak, half security system. I think, rather then buying it. You should sneak into your local prison or military facility and steal it 8)...
"Dude, you're still using barbed wire? That's SO 19th century ... you gotta try RAZOR wire! Yeah, that's the ticket! Gillette makes a good one... be sure to anneal it in hot blood..."
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If you have time, try it with different amps and speakers.
Some solid state amps can have stability problems with capacitive cables, where SETs may just have a different different high frequency response.
On long cable runs, speakers with impedance dips in the crossover will like a low impedance cable. Single driver speakers won't care as much.
This is one of my favorite cables.
"http://www.siteswithstyle.com/voltsecond/cat_5_speaker_cable/cat_5_spk_cable.html"
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Thanks for the various ideas. I'm off to Australia for five weeks at the end of next week so perhaps I can find some old rusted wire by the side of the road from Brisbane to Adelaide. Since there is a cotton producing area on the way I'll just stop and gather the bits floating around by the highway. Or maybe skin from one of the hundreds of dead kangaroos we will pass along the way.
I've been thinking about the testing procedure to see if we can really hear a difference. To compare two sets of cables (A and B), play the same piece of music three times (1, 2, 3). We can hide the cables to ensure that you don't know which is being used.
Cable A will be used the first time.
Cable B will be used the third time.
Either cable A or B (random) will be used the second time.
Judging listeners will need to pick whether the cable changed between 1 and 2 or between 2 and 3.
If anybody can pick holes in this suggested arrangement, let me know.
ray
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I will have a new pair of mtm speakers to debut at the meet. I can also make a couple of sets of cables using copper versus aluminium. We will need an amp good for 4 ohms.
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Steve, could you specify the standard length of each cable. I would suggest 6 or 8 feet.
Of course we would want somebody to bring a set of cables that were double the length of another set of cables of the same design.
So I think we need a list of comparisons that we each can volunteer to do.
A group of dimension comparisons
1 - double the length (same everything else)
2 - roughly double the resistance per foot (same everything else)
3 - double strands (similar to #2)
A group of conductor comparisons
3 - copper v aluminum (same gauge, same topology, same covering, same length)
4 - copper v aluminium (same resistance, same topology, same covering, same length)
5 - copper v steel (same gauge, same topology, same covering, same length)
6 - copper v steel (same resistance, same topology, same covering, same length)
7 - copper v silver (same gauge, same topology, same covering, same length) - somebody rich
A group of covering / insulation comparisons (pvc, teflon, cotton, air , some other mystery material)
8 - pvc v teflon
9 - pvc v cotton
10 - teflon v cotton
and so on.
A group of topology comparisons ( conductors parallel, conductors twisted, other)
And of course, the barbed v unbarbed steel wire which I volunteer to bring.
Other ideas will be welcome of course, but if you are planning to turn up, please start nominating the comparison(s) you want to do so we don't have duplication of effort. There are less than two months to go. If you have the time to construct cables for extra comparisons, please do so. I doubt just the few of us can cover all the permutations.
ray
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Wow concertina speaker cable, half tweak, half security system. I think, rather then buying it. You should sneak into your local prison or military facility and steal it 8)...
"Dude, you're still using barbed wire? That's SO 19th century ... you gotta try RAZOR wire! Yeah, that's the ticket! Gillette makes a good one... be sure to anneal it in hot blood..."
I had a feeling that Paul might be one of 'those'. A 'Renaissance man' of sorts. In touch with his 'darkness'. I'm not saying I'm not in that same camp. Complete with hard shell analytic exterior, with a black hole infinite interior.
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Ok we need 8` cables to avoid stretching issues. I say we do 1/2 the meet on cables and then do a run what you brung for the afternoon. I am a terrible cynic when it comes to speaker cables and i suspect that the differences will be minute if not non existent. I am going to set up my KT88 amp for 4ohms. Can someone bring a nice preamp as mine is misbehaving at the moment and needs some work.
It looks like the meet will be late October rather than November.
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I plan on bringing a group of topology comparisons using Cat6 wiring provided by Lee Hankins. Here are my ideas:
- 6 twisted cables (audioholics V3)
- 6 braided cables (audioholics V4 - this is supposed to have more than twice the capacitance of V3)
- 6 cables deconstructed into single wires, then reassembled into flat side by side wires. I'm going to try sandwiching them between popsicle sticks.
While I'm at it... maybe I will make a set of 6 cables that are not twisted, or braided at all.
Also, I was thinking about music tracks to use. I read about about a power cable comparison that used both audiophiles and layman. There was an assortment of music used - Acoustic, Electric, Choral, etc. The listeners would listen to cable A, then cable B, then an unknown cable X. The listeners had to say whether they thought X was cable A or cable B. If I recall, neither group was able identify the power cords consistently (more than 50% of the time) when you looked at the overall scores. However, I think they were able to identify the cables most consistently when listening to Vocals only music.
I don't want to debate the outcome of the test, or the methodology. I simply found it interesting that Vocals only gave the most consistent outcome in the test. My completely uneducated guess is that humans are more in tune to hearing differences between humans than they are other instruments. Sort of like when you hear a band that gets a new lead singer - the singer might be good, but it doesn't sound right because its not the same person (with the exception of the new singer for Journey... look him up on YouTube and close your eyes. Its remarkable).
What do you think?
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Dave - I agree on using vocals. I heard some 20.7 Maggies the other day that were not set up with the 'proper' system IMO. The vocals were noticeably 'shallow' and lifeless. The rest of the sound was thrilling, but the vocals were the giveaway. Piano may also be a good test, although I dont know of many systems that get piano exactly right.
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I would agree on vocals for the comparisons test. And that is a great selection of cables to test.
I saw plenty of barbed wire on my drive out to Broken Hill in Oz today. However it all appeared to be in use in fences so I kept thoughts of wire cutters out of my mind.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_Hill,_New_South_Wales (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_Hill,_New_South_Wales)
It's an interesting place in the middle of nowhere. Years ago I stayed in the hotel with the weird murals that was featured in the film Priscilla, Queen of the Desert. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adventures_of_Priscilla,_Queen_of_the_Desert (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adventures_of_Priscilla,_Queen_of_the_Desert)
ray
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How cool! - I always wanted to see the wizard.
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The meet is going to be on Sunday the 28th of October and we will start the proceedings at 10.00 am. Please bring all new and old equipment you want to and cables of course. I will supply some basic snacks and drinks but if you want beer etc please feel free to bring some. I thought we might do 1/2 a day on the cables and the other 1/2 as a free for all. Everyone is welcome, let me know if you need directions.
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I will have to be there closer to 11AM.
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For those who are bringing cables, could you please nominate what you are bringing and what parameter will be different between the two.
I will be bringing
1 - barbed steel wire
2 - unbarbed steel wire -
test 1 v 2 - do barbs (raising above ground) make a different
3 - unbarbed copper wire - no insulation
test 2 v 3 - does copper sound different from steel
If I can find some
4 - aluminium wire - no insulation
test 3 v 4 - does copper sound different from aluminium
I will attempt to make the gauges of all wires similar.
ray
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My nominations are above... parameter will be different geometries.
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I have all sorts of copper and aluminium wire we can play with. i also have cat5 and tstat wire and some coax and also some shielded cabling. If anyone needs any wiring let me know.
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The Cat6 cable arrived today. My fingers are already starting to ache. Thanks Lee.
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I have returned from Oz and am now constructing my barbed wire speaker cables. Since I haven't been able to find 64 feet of barbed wire so far without buying a huge roll of the stuff, I am going the DIY route and have made my own barbed wire.
Photos and brief description at
http://bottlenecksaudio.blogspot.com/2012/10/speaker-wire-comparison.html
ray
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Ray,
You crack me up! Loved the pictures!
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I have returned from Oz and am now constructing my barbed wire speaker cables. Since I haven't been able to find 64 feet of barbed wire so far without buying a huge roll of the stuff, I am going the DIY route and have made my own barbed wire.
Photos and brief description at
http://bottlenecksaudio.blogspot.com/2012/10/speaker-wire-comparison.html
ray
Looks cool Ray!
Dont forget to cryo those babies before you twist them... Very important. Of course you want to put them through the cable cooker for no more that 3 days before a good listen.
god speed! - Eric
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I was thinking about the cryo treatment, but I was leaning towards a rub down with Laphroaig whisky http://www.laphroaig.com/ (http://www.laphroaig.com/) or even Pierre Ferrand cognac http://www.pierreferrandcognac.com/en/ (http://www.pierreferrandcognac.com/en/) to bring out something extra in the imaging.
ray
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By the way, I have been building a breadboard version of Jim Dowdy's 6V6 amp that unfortunately did not work at the competition. Hopefully some parts will arrive tomorrow or Friday.
ray
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..... but I was leaning towards a rub down with Laphroaig whisky http://www.laphroaig.com/ (http://www.laphroaig.com/) ....... to bring out something extra in the imaging.
ray
Sounds like alcohol abuse to me.
I am a Laphroaig fan but have only had the 10 year. I'd love to try some "Cask Strength" but the description, "emphatic, full bodied", makes me wonder if a respirator is required if you open it in an enclosed space. I find 10 year pretty damn "emphatic" already.
I am betting that applied to cables it would make the image smokier.
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Kevin,
You are right, it goes in the mouth.
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I plan on attending the meet on Sunday but I have not been able to complete my cables. First I was ill (just a virus that wiped me out). More recently I have been helping my father which, unfortunately, is quite serious. I will be able to bring a pair of Cross Connected 89259 cables and a Bottlehead powercord.
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Hey guys,
I am looking forward to hearing the results from the comparison. I am going to be building my own speaker cables soon,
the results may affect how I build them.
thanks,
Coltrane (and yes that is my real first name...)
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yeh, well my middle name is Soultrain...... Pronounced just like they did on TV!
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Steve and I have exchanged emails and we have decided to call off the meet on Sunday due to the approaching hurricane. The forecast is looking 'pretty grim' for our area. We will reschedule the meet to a later date.
Now I will have time to burn in the cables.
ray
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Sorry about the meet guys but i figured that the subtle differences in the various cables wouldn`t come through too well if the power is out. Hey it gives me more time to build things! Maybe now i can finish my preamp also.
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Batten down the hatches, don't park under any trees, and stay safe!
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I could bring my wind up Victrola, the barb wire could come in handy for spare needles. ;D
Good plan, I am going to stay in and hunker down.
Ray, are you going to ride it out, or head for the hills?
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We already had a mini tornado like down draft in a severe June storm that wiped out a few trees around our house so a few more may come down. Right now the predicted path
http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/refresh/graphics_at3+shtml/235535.shtml?5day?large#contents (http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/refresh/graphics_at3+shtml/235535.shtml?5day?large#contents)
has the storm center right above us at 2pm Tuesday. Of course since it is just a prediction which means there is a very good chance it will hit elsewhere. We are high enough up not to be worried by storm surge and we often get storms that lead to power blackouts so we are used to that. It's a strong house with a yurt shape which is not effected by wind very much.
Bottom line, we ride it out.
ray
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We already had a mini tornado like down draft in a severe June storm that wiped out a few trees around our house so a few more may come down. Right now the predicted path
http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/refresh/graphics_at3+shtml/235535.shtml?5day?large#contents (http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/refresh/graphics_at3+shtml/235535.shtml?5day?large#contents)
has the storm center right above us at 2pm Tuesday. Of course since it is just a prediction which means there is a very good chance it will hit elsewhere. We are high enough up not to be worried by storm surge and we often get storms that lead to power blackouts so we are used to that. It's a strong house with a yurt shape which is not effected by wind very much.
Bottom line, we ride it out.
ray
Good luck mate,
if i see you floating down past us in Va i`ll pluck you and your good lady out.
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This will give me some time to finish up my cables. I have made a 6 cable braid but I haven't gotten around to stripping and terminating. I've tried twisting 6 cables, but the twists aren't consistent and immediately unravel - not sure what the best way to do this is so we might end up having to compare braids to random. I want to make a ribbon-like, but because of other time constraints I might not be able to.
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David,
Really interested in what you think of the cross-connected 89259.
Also, if you give those other cables a half-twist each time you wrap one around the core of cables, they'll stay together much easier. If you've ever seen a 3-strand rope braiding machine work, you'll understand what I mean, but otherwise it's pretty hard to explain in words.
-- Jim
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Hey Ray, Steve, David and all you other east coasters, give us a shout when you can and let us know if you're all ok. Heard that Sandy took half the Ocean City boardwalk out to sea -- which is huge.
John, not sure how things are your way -- we have friends in phillythat have power back and mostly damage to trees, and others up near Newtown that are still in the dark and trapped on their property by large numbers of huge, old trees down.
We also have a beach cottage on the barrier beach in Southampton, N.Y. and one of our neighbors confirmed that he could still see our houses standing, but there was a pretty serious breech of the barrier beach about a mile east of us -- stilll unknown whether it is temporary or permanent. Then another mile east by the Shinnecock inlet, there was very serious erosion to the dunes on both sides of the inlet apparently, but it appears that the commercial fishing fleet came through ok.
By all reports this was one huge storm! I did ride out the 62 storm on that beach, plus several others, but word through the grapevine is that this was something else altogether.
Hope all you guys, your families and friends are all ok.
-- Jim
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We are ok though a tree fell and demolished our back deck. We are fine otherwise, but power is still out. Hopefully that will be restored later today.
Come to think of it, I built a few monstrous looking speakers on that deck. I will miss it until the replacement is built.
ray
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I am OK, power is back on. I lost a lot branches but no trees...John
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My family is fine except for sleeping in the basement during the storm - the air mattress had a leak so I ended up on the floor.
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Glad to hear that you folks are all ok and with minimal damage.
-- Jim
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We did fine this time. Just a couple of branches down and the power stayed on! Glad to hear all are ok. The deck saved the house i guess Ray. Same thing as wee had last year.
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In case you did not see Steve's announcement on the other thread (Any Bottleheads in the Washington DC metro area?), we will try to do the meet on February 24.
I have to admit that my steel speaker wires have sat unused since the hurricane.
By the way, the roof is now repaired and the new back deck will be installed in the new year. My stack of cut up wood is now four foot high and over 50 feet long.
ray
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I will put the 24th on my calendar.
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Just a reminder that the meet will be on in two weeks time.
Weather permitting of course. Fortunately, we only got a bit of freezing rain and no snow. I pity those who had to go out with the shovel to tackle a couple of feet of the stuff.
ray
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Has a location for the 2/24 meet been determined? I am very excited to meet you all.
I am even more excited to receive my Stereomour kit, which is scheduled to arrive.....TODAY!
Hopefully I'll have it up and running in time, though it'll be bone-stock so probably not very exciting for y'all.
Cheers,
Mike
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I'm not sure how much wire I will be bringing. I never got around to terminating my cables. However, I hope to be bringing some fun stuff. I am taking a recording class. I will bring some samples of stuff we have done. I think it will be interesting to hear dry recordings without any effects whatsoever, then the same recordings with some reverb, eq, compression, etc. I also have a pair of powered monitors that I use when mixing. They give a really good image but I haven't really used them for listening to already mixed music yet.
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For any of the northern gang, if you want a ride down to Sterling, VA, let me know and we can meet at North East and I will drive you down there.
Steve, what time do you want to start?
ray
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Ray,
My family and I are all down with the.flu and won't be recovered in time for.the meet this weekend. Let's put it off a couple of weeks and.try again. Sorry guys but can't help getting sick. Let me know what dates will work for you.
Steve.
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Steve,
I hope you all recover quickly. The flu is no fun at all.
I have Philly Orchestra concerts on March 10 and May 5 but other Sundays are fine for me until May 15 when I head off to England to do Wainwright's Coast to Coast walk.
http://www.coast2coast.co.uk/ (http://www.coast2coast.co.uk/)
So pick a date that suits you.
ray
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Sorry to hear about your family having the flu, but it gets me out of the dog house. I forgot to mention that I was going to an audio meet on Sunday which happens to be the same day my wife wanted me to help her. Now I can help without feeling bad about missing the meet. I may also have some time to work on some cables.
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I hope you feel better soon. As time turns out I have tickets to the Philadelphia orchestrated for this Sunday ;D
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Looks like it will be a very different kind of Rite of Spring.
The Philadelphia Orchestra collaborates with the New York-based Ridge Theater Company to present a 21st- century treatment of The Rite of Spring with dancers, video projection, and theatrical lighting.
http://www.philorch.org/concert/rite-spring-1?date=2013-02-24_14-00 (http://www.philorch.org/concert/rite-spring-1?date=2013-02-24_14-00)
It's exciting times at Philly with YNS.
ray