Bottlehead Forum
Bottlehead Kits => BeePre => Topic started by: mp9 on June 10, 2013, 10:57:04 AM
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- so who's played around with designer Caps, which and was it worth it?
Posting as i see Madisound has a few 10uf caps on sale as well as a new affordable Al PP in Oli from Mundorf -
Clarity cap MR $92.00 were $123
http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/esa-cap-630vdc/claritycap-10.0-mfd-esa-range-polypropylene-caps/
Clarity cap ESA $19.67 were $29.50
http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/esa-cap-630vdc/claritycap-10.0-mfd-esa-range-polypropylene-caps/
New Aluminum Metalized Polypropylene in Oil Mundorf EVO oli $18.75
http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/mundorf-mcap-evo-oil-caps/mundorf-10mfd-evo-oil-capacitor/
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Is it worth it? Depends on what you are looking to get out of it. In my opinion (and I say this as someone who has installed "upgraded" caps in all of my Bottlehead builds), they don't make a huge difference in terms of sound. But they are fun to install, give me piece of mind, make me more attractive and got me elected "coolest guy on the block", so yeah, it was worth it. ;)
I have installed ClarityCap ESA and SA caps. I haven't tried the MR series, which - based on ClarityCap's marketing materials - don't seem all that different from the ESA series, yet cost a LOT more. I've heard that the new Mundorf caps are huge (I think someone said so here on Bottlehead, but I'm not sure.) For my money, the ESA caps seem like the sweet spot in terms of price vs. (at least theoretical) performance. But everyone sees this stuff differently, so...
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...looks that way, the 10uf is 27mm Long X 40mm Wide
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...looks that way, the 10uf is 27mm Long X 40mm Wide
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Ok mp9 here is were you start:
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html
Do some diligent study. We all have our opinions. I like the oils. The teflons are to die for, cant afford um. Pick your poison my friend. There is a 'house sound' for sure within certain brands. You tend to get what you pay for, but system synergy is key. The mantra is 'Everything matters'. It truly does. A cap can sound like shit because the cables are not right. Sorry. Its complicated. Thats why you have certain people spending hundreds of thousands on kit. They're not stupid. They would just rather pay someone else to hassle with the details. Us DIY'ers take the 'hassle' on with joy. We live for it, as a matter of fact.. Sorry - had a couple of Scotches. Its a good Monday night!
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8)
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...looks that way, the 10uf is 27mm Long X 40mm Wide
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Hey folks,
I built my BeePre with Clarity MR. They were a bear to fit, but are quite good. A bit pricey...
I built a SS buffer (Pass B1) a few years ago and used the Clarity SA. Later replaced with Mundorf Supreme. The Mundorf Supreme proved a major upgrade in that circuit over the Clarity SA.
YMMV.
-Kevin
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Just so you guys know, 10uF is not a magical value. If you're feeding an amplifier with high input impedance, you can go quite a bit lower.
-PB
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So my amp has 260k Ohm input impedance. How do we figure out how low we can go?
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http://www.v-cap.com/coupling-capacitor-calculator.php (http://www.v-cap.com/coupling-capacitor-calculator.php)
Use the amplifier's input impedance as the load, and 5 hz for the - 3dB frequency. Do be aware that you should select the lowest impedance of any amp you have, or the parallel combination of the two lowest input impedances you will load the preamp with.
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Best answer is to do what we did - listen to a variety of caps:
Theory 1 - LF cutoff and phase shift suggest that a 5Hz corner is close enough to zero. 260K at 5Hz is 0.12uF.
Theory 2 - The cap reactance should be no more than the output impedance at the lowest hum frequency, to minimize the chance of capacitive hum coupling. 600 ohms at 60Hz is 4.4uF
#3 not-a-theory - we tried a bunch and thought the bass was best at 10uF or more.
YMMV.
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Interesting! Thank you PB and PJ. I've got a pair of 5uF Auricaps I may try against the Auri Caps. I can measure any change in bass response with the mic.
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You won't likely measure anything - but there's a decent chance you will hear something. Just sayin' ...
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Yep.. Chance is you will hear something. We most always hear something with changes. The hard part is trying to decide what kind of change it is, and is it worth it. Most of the time, if its not broken, dont fix it.
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PJ/PB, can I use a 100v cap here?
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I probably wouldn't, though it's possible that it wouldn't cause any problems. It's tough to ignore that even the regulated supply is well over 100V.
-PB
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Best answer is to do what we did - listen to a variety of caps:
Theory 1 - LF cutoff and phase shift suggest that a 5Hz corner is close enough to zero. 260K at 5Hz is 0.12uF.
Theory 2 - The cap reactance should be no more than the output impedance at the lowest hum frequency, to minimize the chance of capacitive hum coupling. 600 ohms at 60Hz is 4.4uF
#3 not-a-theory - we tried a bunch and thought the bass was best at 10uF or more.
YMMV.
I know this may seem out of character, but I actually measured that 10uF was around the smallest we wanted to go for best bass extension into a typical 50K-100K load, on a scope.
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PJ/PB, can I use a 100v cap here?
Trying not to be a PITA, but would 200v suffice for the 10uF caps in the PreBee/Mainline? I'm eyeing up a particular Russian PIO model that I might be able to shoehorn.
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200V is pretty marginal based on startup voltage, but operating voltage will be much lower.
In the BeePre, the 300B's warm up very quickly (unless they are old and crusty), so the voltage across the 10uF caps will pop right down to ~100V. If you have no 300B's and no EL84's plugged in, you'll put more than 200V across those caps...
In the Mainline, everything warms up slowly. The 10uF caps will have more than 200V across them for quite some time, I'd say 15-30 seconds every time you turn the amp on.
I don't think I would worry a whole lot about either case, but those startup spikes may decrease the life of your 200V caps.
-PB
(PS - the Russian military caps are "noted" for having tolerance to higher voltages, but I don't think anybody has abused one to the point of failure, so no hard data really exists)
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Thanks for the great info PB, I appreciate it ;D
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Just a quick note here - non-electrolytic capacitor voltage ratings are related to lifetime; as an example suppose 20% over-voltage reduce the lifetime by a factor of 10. So a 100,000-hour cap will only last 10,000 hours. Testing to destruction for a minute or a day will never detect this. I see too many such tests "proving that a cap can exceed its ratings".
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I bit the bullet and ordered some Jupiter HT 10uf 300V caps. I've had good luck with Jupiter in the past so hopefully they match up well with these fancy new bottlehead kits :)
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hificollective.co.uk%2Fimages2%2Fjupiter_flatstack_100v_350.gif&hash=5170861a297995ea7fa6f417fd7fb16692fe14d3)
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Then there are people like me. Read somewhere that Doc liked Auricap (might be true, might not!). Put some in, sounded good. Done. I suppose I have used Teflon, Obligatto, and some others here and there but when it came to Bottlehead, it was pretty much build it with Auricap and call it good. I never wanted to capacitor roll, I didn't even want to deal with replacing capacitors later. So I know less about what these capacitor upgrades did only ever having upgraded the capacitors after having listened to stock in my original Foreplay II. My point (finally) is if you want to obsess, great, if you enjoy that kind of tinkering that's great! If not, do what I did in my Eros. Pick a cap that has a good reputation. Stick it in. If it sounds good, listen to the music and call it a day. Your call!
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I bit the bullet and ordered some Jupiter HT 10uf 300V caps. I've had good luck with Jupiter in the past so hopefully they match up well with these fancy new bottlehead kits :)
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hificollective.co.uk%2Fimages2%2Fjupiter_flatstack_100v_350.gif&hash=5170861a297995ea7fa6f417fd7fb16692fe14d3)
I wish you would have contacted me. I would have sold you mine :)
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Did you settle on the Russian oilers? I was definitely considering them but I figured it would be a little difficult to mount a pair of 6uf 400V KBGs on each side of the amp ;)
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If the Jupiter HT caps look like the ones above please post a picture. I have no reference for size in the above photograph. I'm curious.
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I'll post a pic as soon as they arrive.
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I grabbed 20 - 10uF/160V Russian MGBO's from Bulgaria for about $2 each. Unfortunately, if I use them in all possible places in my system, I will still have 16 left, lol.
I also ordered one of the varieties of balanced input transformers, and we'll work on putting up instructions for installation.
-PB
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Did you settle on the Russian oilers? I was definitely considering them but I figured it would be a little difficult to mount a pair of 6uf 400V KBGs on each side of the amp ;)
I did and for me they work very well. I'll find a home for the Jupiter's at some point. Their voltage rating is too low to use them in a power amp....
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Would it hurt to go larger? Reason I ask is I was thinking Obbligato and I can either buy a 10 uf 630V or a 15uf 250V and the 15uf is cheaper.
[/quote]
I know this may seem out of character, but I actually measured that 10uF was around the smallest we wanted to go for best bass extension into a typical 50K-100K load, on a scope.
[/quote]
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More uF is OK, I'd go for the smallest size you can get away with.
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The 15uf is actually smaller than the 10 due to the voltage, so if it isn't going to hurt anything to bump up the uf that much, why the heck not?
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You're driving Paramounts. I think PB is saying you could get away with a 1.5uF cap, that kinda small :)
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Well, he said "smallest size" so I was thinking he meant physical size since squeezing something like the KBGs under the hood was so difficult. But I might have misunderstood, wouldn't be the first time!
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Yeah, I meant physical size. Personally, I wouldn't care too much about going under 10uF, but otherwise the voltage rating required is very low in the BeePre, so saving some money and space on 15uF caps with a lower voltage rating seems like a good decision.
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My KBG's are on longer extensions and sit on the floor under the preamp. It's not the best but it doesn't move very often. Plus it allows a little more air circulation or at least I tell myself this ;) nothing says that you need to secure the caps to the chassis plate. Who knows, I might actually be helping the overall sound! ;)
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With children running around, exposed capacitors of any magnitude are a definite non-starter. 😷 Thinking I will go with the Obbligato Gold, though was also thinking about Mundorf EVO (aluminum and oil). Obbligato is much more likely though.
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I gotta tell you Paully, try PB's test first. I noticed zero difference in low end output with a 1.5uF cap vs the 10uF KBG. Really i should measure it out but audibly I didn't complain. I know you have caps lying around. I would suggest using first the Daytons that come with the kit. Once you have it settled in and have a good feel for it, try what you have around. I was very happy with a 1.5uF cap as far as the low end goes and if you have a SEX or other BH builds you probably have a few. I've got a handful of 1uF KBG's you can try if you don't have any. I used to double them up in my SEX.
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With children running around, exposed capacitors of any magnitude are a definite non-starter. 😷 ...
I don't have a BeePre, but do have an FP3X. I used additional stand-offs with an aluminum platform to mount my 2uF KBG's horizontally, (parallel to the top plate). That substantially reduced the required height, mounts them very securely and provides a better visual layout down under. I took the concept to a more extreme on my Crack fitting 6 MGBO 30uF's and a C7-X choke in the"basement", still remaining in normal base footprint.
Looking at a pic of the BeePre, there appears to be good availability to add male/female stand-offs above, (really below in the playing position), the two small regulator boards.
I tried Obbligato Golds, Mundorf Supreme SIO, OS Vitamin Q's and KBG's. (Bias clearly stated..I .don't like the sound of metalized polyprop caps). IMO the Vitamin Q's were much better that the MPP caps in timbre, imaging and sound stage. The KBG's bested them all...all of the good of the Vit Q's, but a more crisp sounding presentation providing a bit better detail and apparent speed.
Cheers,
Geary
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I would be more, more than happy to try them, but seriously, if they can't fit under the hood I just wouldn't want to take any sort of risk with my children. But if I can shoe horn them in, I am game! Back to the beer!
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A zip tied pair would fit under the hood (2uF) but if you PM the usual guys on ePay they have 10uF 200v's in their stashes; that's how I got my pair ($10 bucks or so a piece). They would work if you secured them to the base plate. No greater risk than securing them the way in the manual.
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Well, it is a moot point point now. Enough of aforementioned beer and a paypal login, I have a pair of KBGs on the way. Thanks. I am logging off before more trouble ensues.
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Well, it is a moot point point now. Enough of aforementioned beer and a paypal login, I have a pair of KBGs on the way. Thanks. I am logging off before more trouble ensues.
;D
Cheers,
Geary
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Lol, ahhhh etoh and audio, an expensive and fun combo!
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I had to look up the KGB caps. Paully has had some of those in his last two crossovers. I bought a pair for my tweeter crossover but settled on a KK Teflon.
I'll grab a handful of caps to take to the build. I want to see how they will pan out if I can talk him into rolling caps with jumpers. He prefers to solder and listen.
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We can do some cap rolling. I have the KBG's coming and am still going to order the obbligato. I should send them to you so you can run them in. Obbligato supposedly need a minimum of 200 hours and the KBG should probably get the same. You had some sort of system for running caps in at some point, still do? Then we can do the jumpers and see what we like. How does that sound?
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Be glad to. I'm sending some pictures.
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A zip tied pair would fit under the hood... but if you PM the usual guys on ePay they have 10uF 200v's in their stashes; that's how I got my pair ($10 bucks or so a piece). They would work if you secured them to the base plate. No greater risk than securing them the way in the manual.
Boulos built my BeePre using the stock caps. A few weeks later he was kind enough to replace the stock caps with Russian PIO 10uF. He used the zip-tie method you mentioned and it worked fine (though it took some extra work).
Gerry
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi27.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc157%2Fgerrye123%2Fbeepre-underneath_zps001d14e6.jpg&hash=23983501c8ef69621b37dc6d709026c431e35fcf)
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Gerry, which Russian PIO is that?
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Gerry, which Russian PIO is that?
I purchased the caps from elecments13 on eBay. He is located in Bulgaria. I don't know if these are the exact same caps I purchased but they are very similar (ex. voltage may have been different):
http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-uF-300-V-STRONG-MATCHED-RUSSIAN-PAPER-IN-OIL-PIO-AUDIO-CAPACITORS-MBGO-1-/281306931976?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item417f332308 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-uF-300-V-STRONG-MATCHED-RUSSIAN-PAPER-IN-OIL-PIO-AUDIO-CAPACITORS-MBGO-1-/281306931976?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item417f332308)
Gerry
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They are MBGO's. The KBG's are much larger. Alexander on ePay usually has them if you want the give them a try in the future.