Bottlehead Forum
Other Gear => Speakers => Topic started by: azrockitman on August 02, 2013, 08:28:02 AM
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I would love to match up my new orca's with their subwoofer but I just can't justify $800 right now. Actually $1000 if I were to buy their amp. (And yes, I know I missed a good scratch/dent combo special for $550 on their website specials >:( )
I've got an old Atlantic 150 watt sub I'm using right now but for some reason I get unacceptable low level hum added to the sound when I use it. If I turn the sub volume nearly all the way down, and the crossover to nearly it's lowest point, I can eliminate most of that hum....but I suspect the hum is just lessened, not eliminated by doing that.
But my question is if anyone has had fairly good results with a modestly priced sub that works well mated up to a pair of orcas and the stereomour? Thanks!
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Are you feeding the sub amp from the Stereomour speaker outputs? If so, have you adjusted hum balance pots for lowest hum?
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Doh! :-[
Yes I'm feeding the sub amp from the stereomour speaker outputs and I have not adjusted the hum balance pots.
Back to work. :)
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While we're on the subject of modestly priced subs...
I have a good amp, I use good speaker cables and my primary speakers (Magnepan MG12s) are also quite good. I've paired the foregoing with a decidedly economical sub. It was recommended by a friend, and I have always been 100% satisfied by its performance - a wonderful bargain that has never caused me to want for more.
The only drawback to the sub is that it doesn't accept RCA inputs. It can accept Dolby Pro Logic and Dolby Digital/DTS inputs, LFE inputs from a receiver, or it can accept speaker cable inputs. Since I don't use a receiver, my only option has been to run speaker cables from my amp to the sub, and then from the sub's speaker cable outputs to the MG12s.
I keep wondering about the sub's crossover filter, however. Do you think it is holding back the Maggies? The sub is really cheap, so I can't believe the crossover is high quality. My amp has dual speaker binding posts (not A/B connections, as far as I know they are for bi-wiring, therefore both sets are always active). Would I be better off running one set of speaker cables from my amp to my sub, and then a second set from my amp to the MG12s? That would eliminate the crossover. I have the crossover on the sub set at 80 Hz. Would you expect the overlap between the sub and the MG12s to significantly degrade quality? Would you suggest setting the crossover on the sub lower? Or is the sub's crossover unlikely to be degrading the quality of the signal it passes to the MG12s?
Thanks,
Adam
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I keep wondering about the sub's crossover filter, however. Do you think it is holding back the Maggies?
Thanks,
Adam
YES! Get the sub out of the mains circuit. IMO, better to have no sub, than so significantly impede the performance of the mains.
Cheers,
Geary
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I listen to lots of contemporary music. A wide variety of things, but bass is certainly important to me, and the MG12s on their own don't satisfy me in that department. The sub does a perfect job of filling in the bottom end, so I'm not willing to get rid of it entirely.
Now, assuming I'm going to keep the sub, do you think I'm better off sticking with my current wiring scheme, or wiring the MG12s directly to my amp, which will result in some crossover between the MG12s and the sub?
Best regards,
Adam
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It's a subjective call and I think you need to try it for yourself and decide.
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I'll do that this weekend...
[FWIW, I knew that was the answer. But I get frustrated (and bored) by my inability to get answers to this stuff while at work, which is to say: during most of my waking hours. Then I have to try and cram in all the stuff I need and want to do at night or on weekends. And anything speaker-related has to wait until the weekends, because if I use the speakers at night, I'll wake the kids...]
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As Doc said listen and try. You only have to please your ears. According to Magnepan, the MG12's are 3dB down at 45Hz. (Based on my limited exposure to the speakers, that is optimistic.) So yes I would lower the high pass on the sub. 80Hz will give a mid bass hump. But who knows, you may like it!
Cheers,
Geary
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-3dB at 45 Hz may happen in a theoretically ideal space, but may not be the case at all in a given room. My suggestion is take some of the money typically spent on the flavor of the week capacitors and buy a decent mic instead. Get some free software off the web and learn how to shoot the room, and use the results to tune your system.
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My problem isn't money, it's time.
I'll be happy if I get enough time to swap the cable setup from my amp and listen to the system both ways. Even that seems doubtful, and I'm not exaggerating.
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We've just released a new subwoofer model, actually, called the Dungeness for a target price of $599 (integrated amplifier). We've been so busy filling orders for them and clearing the decks of the rest of our orders lately that we haven't had time to properly release it on our website. You can find some details on our Facebook page for the time being https://www.facebook.com/BlumenUltraFi (https://www.facebook.com/BlumenUltraFi). Because its still not officially released, it is still being priced at an introductory $549 until we get pictures up.
Magnepan speakers are a totally different beast from our compact fullrange design philosophy. Granted, I think the Maggies sound pretty good as well... different paths can lead a similarly good thing. And music is in the ear of the listener, afterall.
But from an engineering standpoint, the way we build and brace our subwoofer models (and the entire design philosophy behind the Dungeness and Orca Sub, for that matter), is the key behind their sonic integration with the Orcas which are given the same design philosophy. It is just as difficult to accomplish this trait of zero damping/sufficient strength when designing a subwoofer as a fullrange speaker - but the total result is a nice and non fatiguing kind of detail/speed and plenty of bass.
While cheap subs can work decently with the Orcas and some of our customers go this route, in my opinion, there just is not a cheap sub i've come across that I'd consider to be a viable replacement for the sound quality of our models. There aren't a whole lot of other fullrange designs out there that are capable of operating without the crutches of damping material, and so, also very few subwoofers that operate within the zero damping material/high strength design paradigm.
The zero damping material aspect that I insist upon is a trait that I feel is akin to zero negative feedback in an amplifier. What I'm looking for is to get the most extremely sharp and behaved impulse response from a single source of energy (alot like an SET) and then shape the resultant energy with the sufficiently well built enclosure/transformers into something that behaves in a mostly flat and linear way, and to then "excersize some patience" to accept some limitations in terms of power and dynamics and measurable distortion that this approach gives us. "Damn the torpedoes, full steam ahead with ~3.5 WPC and ~5 watt rated input!"
As long as there is nothing is in the signal path (physical or electronic) that's "hitting the brakes," then you often can get more energy and musical excitement than you've bargained for on only those few watts/small component footprint.
I'm obsessed with this kind of engineering in other realms as well, have been my whole life, and now we run our business with it, actually. Everything we own (Molly is SO tolerant!) is a study in getting the most from the smallest. All 120 volt or hand operated tooling only, yet producing large volumes of cabinets comfortably with a small staff in a small shop laid out in an efficient manner. Only 100 horsepower in either the shop truck or the volvo wagon but they can haul simply massive loads and put up with serious abuse. The motorcycle has 7 horsepower but does 57mph, the Zodiac has a 5 horsepower 2 stroke but does 15+ knots, the sailboat (a Laser) can outrun the motorboat if the winds are strong enough and you're on the right tack. The most extreme example of this engineering/life excersize is a 1967 Saab 96 I had back in college that had 36 horsepower from a 650cc 2 stroke, tweaked to be able to run 105mph maximum speed (after 5 miles of flat). Land, Sea, Air (movement), Blumensteins!
Good call on the hum pots, Dan. I'll make sure to put that into our instruction manuals in the future.
Cheers!
Clark
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My problem isn't money, it's time. . . .
In that case buy the Orca subs. They have a more significantly similar transient response to the Orcas than powered subs.
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My problem isn't money, it's time. . . .
In that case buy the Orca subs. They have a more significantly similar transient response to the Orcas than powered subs.
Well....
1. I don't have Orcas, so finding a sub to match the Orcas (whether aesthetically or sonically) isn't a concern.
2. I'm not looking for a new sub, I'm perfectly happy with my existing sub. I don't claim it is the end-all, be-all of subs, but I don't find myself wanting more. I may upgrade evenually (in which case the new Dungeness would be quite attactive), but it's just not a priority right now.
Probably my fault for tacking onto someone else's thread. I was just trying to figure out whether I should change how I have my speakers and sub wired. I'll run some empirical tests when I have a chance, hopefully this weekend.
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"I'm not looking for a new sub, I'm perfectly happy with my existing sub. I don't claim it is the end-all, be-all of subs, but I don't find myself wanting more." then maybe you have already answered yourself?.
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"I'm not looking for a new sub, I'm perfectly happy with my existing sub. I don't claim it is the end-all, be-all of subs, but I don't find myself wanting more." then maybe you have already answered yourself?.
Ugh. No. Again, my fault for hijacking this thread. The subject line of the thread is not related to my question. The OP was looking for a cheap sub to match his Orcas, until Doc pointed him toward the answer to his hum problem.
I then interjected with a question about how to best wire my cheap sub (which I am very happy with and not looking to replace) to play nicely with my Magneplanar MG12s (NOT Orcas). I don't have any complaints about how my system sounds right now, but I was just wondering whether the crossover in the cheap sub is likely holding back the MG12s somewhat, since I currently have my speaker cables running from my amp to the sub, and then from the sub to the MG12s.
This weekend I plan to try and run separate cables (1) from my amp to the sub and (2) from my amp to the MG12s. We'll see if that has a noticeable effect on the sound (for better or for worse).
Best regards,
Adam
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I was just wondering whether the crossover in the cheap sub is likely holding back the MG12s somewhat, since I currently have my speaker cables running from my amp to the sub, and then from the sub to the MG12s.
This weekend I plan to try and run separate cables (1) from my amp to the sub and (2) from my amp to the MG12s. We'll see if that has a noticeable effect on the sound (for better or for worse).
Best regards,
Adam
Adam,
We haven't played with subs and Maggies, but we've definitely encountered this connundrum alot.
For our Orca Subs, our solution is the "Y cables" which is prettymuch a continuous piece of wire that is simply tapped in the middle via banana plugs which are plugged into the sub amp's high level inputs. Its a solder connection at that middle banana plug so it really doesn't hurt the conductivity of the entire speaker cable.
For our Dungeness Subs, we prefer to use the "good speaker wire" going from the stereo amp ->fullranges and then cheap wire going from fullranges' binding posts to sub amp's high level inputs. The draw from the high level inputs of a sub amp is typically so minimal that it does not necessitate really good speaker wire to make that connection. Also, the integrated amp in the Dungeness is a littler one than we use in the Orca Sub, and it has spring clip terminals - impossible to use a banana plug.
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On another note, we never wire the system through the high level in/out section of the sub amps as the binding posts and internal wiring in most sub amps tends to be pretty cheezy. Also, you are adding unnecessary mechanical connections to the signal path of the amp->fullrange, which you are nearly guaranteed to hear. Sometimes it engages a high pass filter (usually a cheap electrolytic capacitor) for the fullranges and this also usually doesn't sound very good.
Overall, we prefer the speaker level inputs versus RCA inputs because the bass reproduction characteristics of the power tube is allowed to come through to both the full range and sub drivers - so that the system's bass balance remains proportional even if you are switching power amps for instance from a bass heavy 300B to a bass shy 45.
With the RCA hookups, you'll tend to need to retune your sub's settings when you swap in different power amps for your fullranges. Just a twitch on the gain knob most often, but it does get a little bit annoying when running double subs for instance.
There are other benefits to the speaker level inputs that are more about the overall subjective sound quality... harder to put into words. So I'll leave it there.
Cheers!
-Clark
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Ok, so Adam is not the OP who is looking for a sub for Orcas.
I guess it is a matter of what you, Adam, are looking for in addition to what you have.
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Well, I am the OP! ;D
And after being reminded of the chore that I missed (Balancing the hum pots) I did that chore and the hum i gone. Go figure. ::) So it sounds ok for now.
Clark I like the option of the new sub Thanks for pointing that out. I'm not a facebooker, though.
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Clark,
Thanks, that was very helpful. I appreciate you taking the time to write that up. Since I already have two sets of good quality cables and my amp has dual sets of binding posts, I think the easiest is to just run separate cables to the sub and the full-ranges.
If I can test it this weekend, I'll report back and let you know what I preferred.
Thanks again,
Adam
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So...today my wife went into NYC with my mother-in-law (visiting from Germany). With loud complaining from my twin 5-year old daughters, I took the opportunity to run the test. I swapped the speaker cables to run directly from my amp. It may well be my imagination, but I found the mids gain an extra degree of clarity and richness (not that I've ever had any complaints about the mids from my MG12s), and the highs seemed a tiny bit crisper (possibly a little too crisp, but not offensive). But the sound could sometimes feel a bit brittle, a bit thin, and a bit flat. Not only that, the bass felt a bit muddled. I attributed the confusion in the bass to the overlap between the full-range MG12s (without a crossover between them and the amp) and the sub. But I was confused by how the overall sound changed for the worse. I kept trying to figure it out, but I couldn't. Eventually I decided to try and resolve the bass muddle by lowering the crossover frequency on the sub. I reached back to the sub, and noticed....it wasn't on! Somehow the power plug had fallen out. I plugged it back in, and all was right with the world. The bass tightened up, the sound became rounded, full and three-dimensional. No problems whatsoever. Glad I tried this!
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FWIW, despite the seemingly negative comments above, I'm actually impressed by the bass from the MG12s. It was still powerful enough that it never even occurred to me that the sub wasn't on. But there is no question that I much prefer them when complemented by a sub.
Best regards,
Adam