Modestly priced subwoofer for Orcas?

azrockitman · 8125

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Offline azrockitman

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on: August 02, 2013, 08:28:02 AM
I would love to match up my new orca's with their subwoofer but I just can't justify $800 right now.  Actually $1000 if I were to buy their amp.  (And yes, I know I missed a good scratch/dent combo special for $550 on their website specials  >:(  )
I've got an old Atlantic 150 watt sub I'm using right now but for some reason I get unacceptable low level hum added to the sound when I use it.  If I turn the sub volume nearly all the way down, and the crossover to nearly it's lowest point, I can eliminate most of that hum....but I suspect the hum is just lessened, not eliminated by doing that.

But my question is if anyone has had fairly good results with a modestly priced sub that works well mated up to a pair of orcas and the stereomour?  Thanks!

Esoteric DV-50, Technics SL1200-M3D, B&K Phono 10 Preamp, Sumiko Blue Point Special Evo III, Bottlehead Stereomour, Orca's


Offline Doc B.

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Reply #1 on: August 02, 2013, 08:32:29 AM
Are you feeding the sub amp from the Stereomour speaker outputs? If so, have you adjusted hum balance pots for lowest hum?

Dan "Doc B." Schmalle
President For Life
Bottlehead Corp.


Offline azrockitman

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Reply #2 on: August 02, 2013, 08:36:44 AM
Doh!   :-[

Yes I'm feeding the sub amp from the stereomour speaker outputs and I have not adjusted the hum balance pots. 

Back to work.   :) 

Esoteric DV-50, Technics SL1200-M3D, B&K Phono 10 Preamp, Sumiko Blue Point Special Evo III, Bottlehead Stereomour, Orca's


Offline adamct

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Reply #3 on: August 02, 2013, 08:52:53 AM
While we're on the subject of modestly priced subs...

I have a good amp, I use good speaker cables and my primary speakers (Magnepan MG12s) are also quite good. I've paired the foregoing with a decidedly economical sub. It was recommended by a friend, and I have always been 100% satisfied by its performance - a wonderful bargain that has never caused me to want for more.

The only drawback to the sub is that it doesn't accept RCA inputs. It can accept Dolby Pro Logic and Dolby Digital/DTS inputs, LFE inputs from a receiver, or it can accept speaker cable inputs. Since I don't use a receiver, my only option has been to run speaker cables from my amp to the sub, and then from the sub's speaker cable outputs to the MG12s.

I keep wondering about the sub's crossover filter, however. Do you think it is holding back the Maggies? The sub is really cheap, so I can't believe the crossover is high quality. My amp has dual speaker binding posts (not A/B connections, as far as I know they are for bi-wiring, therefore both sets are always active). Would I be better off running one set of speaker cables from my amp to my sub, and then a second set from my amp to the MG12s? That would eliminate the crossover. I have the crossover on the sub set at 80 Hz. Would you expect the overlap between the sub and the MG12s to significantly degrade quality? Would you suggest setting the crossover on the sub lower? Or is the sub's crossover unlikely to be degrading the quality of the signal it passes to the MG12s?

Thanks,
Adam



Offline galyons

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Reply #4 on: August 02, 2013, 08:58:27 AM
...

I keep wondering about the sub's crossover filter, however. Do you think it is holding back the Maggies?


Thanks,
Adam

YES!  Get the sub out of the mains circuit.  IMO, better to have no sub, than so significantly impede the performance of the mains.

Cheers,
Geary

VPI TNT IV/JMW 3D 12+Benz LP-S>  Eros + Auralic Aries + ANK Dac 4.1 >Eros TH+ Otari MX5050 IIIB2 > BeePre >Paramount 300B 7N7 > EV Sentry IV-A

Thorens TD124/Ortofon RMG-212/SPU >Seduction > Smash^Up> Paramour 45 MQ >K12's


Offline adamct

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Reply #5 on: August 02, 2013, 09:03:41 AM
I listen to lots of contemporary music. A wide variety of things, but bass is certainly important to me, and the MG12s on their own don't satisfy me in that department. The sub does a perfect job of filling in the bottom end, so I'm not willing to get rid of it entirely.

Now, assuming I'm going to keep the sub, do you think I'm better off sticking with my current wiring scheme, or wiring the MG12s directly to my amp, which will result in some crossover between the MG12s and the sub?

Best regards,
Adam



Offline Doc B.

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Reply #6 on: August 02, 2013, 09:18:02 AM
It's a subjective call and I think you need to try it for yourself and decide.

Dan "Doc B." Schmalle
President For Life
Bottlehead Corp.


Offline adamct

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Reply #7 on: August 02, 2013, 09:29:36 AM
I'll do that this weekend...

[FWIW, I knew that was the answer. But I get frustrated (and bored) by my inability to get answers to this stuff while at work, which is to say: during most of my waking hours. Then I have to try and cram in all the stuff I need and want to do at night or on weekends. And anything speaker-related has to wait until the weekends, because if I use the speakers at night, I'll wake the kids...]



Offline galyons

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Reply #8 on: August 02, 2013, 09:40:29 AM
As Doc said listen and try.  You only have to please your ears.  According to Magnepan, the MG12's are 3dB down at 45Hz.  (Based on my limited exposure to the speakers, that is optimistic.)  So yes I would lower the high pass on the sub.   80Hz will give a mid bass hump. But who knows, you may like it!

Cheers,
Geary


VPI TNT IV/JMW 3D 12+Benz LP-S>  Eros + Auralic Aries + ANK Dac 4.1 >Eros TH+ Otari MX5050 IIIB2 > BeePre >Paramount 300B 7N7 > EV Sentry IV-A

Thorens TD124/Ortofon RMG-212/SPU >Seduction > Smash^Up> Paramour 45 MQ >K12's


Offline Doc B.

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Reply #9 on: August 02, 2013, 09:56:06 AM
-3dB at 45 Hz may happen in a theoretically ideal space, but may not be the case at all in a given room. My suggestion is take some of the money typically spent on the flavor of the week capacitors and buy a decent mic instead. Get some free software off the web and learn how to shoot the room, and use the results to tune your system.


Dan "Doc B." Schmalle
President For Life
Bottlehead Corp.


Offline adamct

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Reply #10 on: August 02, 2013, 10:05:17 AM
My problem isn't money, it's time.

I'll be happy if I get enough time to swap the cable setup from my amp and listen to the system both ways. Even that seems doubtful, and I'm not exaggerating.



Offline Clark B.

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Reply #11 on: August 02, 2013, 10:49:40 AM
We've just released a new subwoofer model, actually, called the Dungeness for a target price of $599 (integrated amplifier).  We've been so busy filling orders for them and clearing the decks of the rest of our orders lately that we haven't had time to properly release it on our website.  You can find some details on our Facebook page for the time being https://www.facebook.com/BlumenUltraFi.  Because its still not officially released, it is still being priced at an introductory $549 until we get pictures up.

Magnepan speakers are a totally different beast from our compact fullrange design philosophy.  Granted, I think the Maggies sound pretty good as well... different paths can lead a similarly good thing.  And music is in the ear of the listener, afterall. 

But from an engineering standpoint, the way we build and brace our subwoofer models (and the entire design philosophy behind the Dungeness and Orca Sub, for that matter), is the key behind their sonic integration with the Orcas which are given the same design philosophy.  It is just as difficult to accomplish this trait of zero damping/sufficient strength when designing a subwoofer as a fullrange speaker - but the total result is a nice and non fatiguing kind of detail/speed and plenty of bass.

While cheap subs can work decently with the Orcas and some of our customers go this route, in my opinion, there just is not a cheap sub i've come across that I'd consider to be a viable replacement for the sound quality of our models.  There aren't a whole lot of other fullrange designs out there that are capable of operating without the crutches of damping material, and so, also very few subwoofers that operate within the zero damping material/high strength design paradigm.

The zero damping material aspect that I insist upon is a trait that I feel is akin to zero negative feedback in an amplifier.  What I'm looking for is to get the most extremely sharp and behaved impulse response from a single source of energy (alot like an SET) and then shape the resultant energy with the sufficiently well built enclosure/transformers into something that behaves in a mostly flat and linear way, and to then "excersize some patience" to accept some limitations in terms of power and dynamics and measurable distortion that this approach gives us.  "Damn the torpedoes, full steam ahead with ~3.5 WPC and ~5 watt rated input!"

As long as there is nothing is in the signal path (physical or electronic) that's "hitting the brakes," then you often can get more energy and musical excitement than you've bargained for on only those few watts/small component footprint.

I'm obsessed with this kind of engineering in other realms as well, have been my whole life, and now we run our business with it, actually.  Everything we own (Molly is SO tolerant!) is a study in getting the most from the smallest.  All 120 volt or hand operated tooling only, yet producing large volumes of cabinets comfortably with a small staff in a small shop laid out in an efficient manner.  Only 100 horsepower in either the shop truck or the volvo wagon but they can haul simply massive loads and put up with serious abuse.  The motorcycle has 7 horsepower but does 57mph, the Zodiac has a 5 horsepower 2 stroke but does 15+ knots, the sailboat (a Laser) can outrun the motorboat if the winds are strong enough and you're on the right tack.  The most extreme example of this engineering/life excersize is a 1967 Saab 96 I had back in college that had 36 horsepower from a 650cc 2 stroke, tweaked to be able to run 105mph maximum speed (after 5 miles of flat).  Land, Sea, Air (movement), Blumensteins!

Good call on the hum pots, Dan.  I'll make sure to put that into our instruction manuals in the future.

Cheers!

Clark
« Last Edit: August 02, 2013, 11:27:51 AM by Clark B. »



Offline Grainger49

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Reply #12 on: August 02, 2013, 10:50:48 AM
  My problem isn't money, it's time. . . .   

In that case buy the Orca subs.  They have a more significantly similar transient response to the Orcas than powered subs.



Offline adamct

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Reply #13 on: August 02, 2013, 11:03:32 AM
  My problem isn't money, it's time. . . .   

In that case buy the Orca subs.  They have a more significantly similar transient response to the Orcas than powered subs.

Well....

1. I don't have Orcas, so finding a sub to match the Orcas (whether aesthetically or sonically) isn't a concern.

2. I'm not looking for a new sub, I'm perfectly happy with my existing sub. I don't claim it is the end-all, be-all of subs, but I don't find myself wanting more. I may upgrade evenually (in which case the new Dungeness would be quite attactive), but it's just not a priority right now.

Probably my fault for tacking onto someone else's thread. I was just trying to figure out whether I should change how I have my speakers and sub wired. I'll run some empirical tests when I have a chance, hopefully this weekend.



Offline Chris

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Reply #14 on: August 02, 2013, 11:38:12 AM
"I'm not looking for a new sub, I'm perfectly happy with my existing sub. I don't claim it is the end-all, be-all of subs, but I don't find myself wanting more."   then maybe you have already answered yourself?.