Bottlehead Forum

Bottlehead Kits => Legacy Kit Products => Submissive => Topic started by: Doc B. on April 19, 2013, 08:53:40 AM

Title: Surprise!
Post by: Doc B. on April 19, 2013, 08:53:40 AM
We cooked up a new kit and kept it a secret until it was done -

(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bottlehead.com%2Fsc_images%2Fproducts%2F465_image.jpg&hash=820e634725cdc8002db9a2ec57baaf3f)

http://www.bottlehead.com/store.php/products/submissive-volumesource-control-kit (http://www.bottlehead.com/store.php/products/submissive-volumesource-control-kit)
Title: Re: Surprise!
Post by: Grainger49 on April 19, 2013, 09:26:25 AM
Dan,

You are due some secrets.  I realize how difficult it is starting a project and getting so many questions and suggestions that it loses shape.

And I admit that I am part of that problem.

Congratulations!
Title: Re: Surprise!
Post by: xcortes on April 19, 2013, 09:27:34 AM
Love the name.
Title: Re: Surprise!
Post by: bhjazz on April 19, 2013, 09:42:45 AM
Gah!  Don't do this to me! 

I've been thinking about a passive for some time, and now Bottlehead has a sweet non-bottled option!  Who woulda thunkit?
Title: Re: Surprise!
Post by: Doc B. on April 19, 2013, 10:12:44 AM
If I wasn't so pleased with the way the Bee Quiet sounds I probably wouldn't have done this kit. That attenuator was really quite a 'step up' from anything else we tried. So as long as we could translate it into a lower impedance setup for passive use and not lose what I liked about the sound, it seemed to make sense. It seems to have the same sonic qualities as the Bee Quiet and the switch is very quiet - absolutely no popping or clicking when turning the knobs on the prototype.
Title: Re: Surprise!
Post by: 4krow on April 19, 2013, 10:28:48 AM
DAMMIT DOC! Another great idea, esp the atten part.
Title: Re: Surprise!
Post by: chard on April 21, 2013, 06:09:39 AM
 Would this kit work well with the stereomour? The data on the stereomour says the input impedance is 270k, would the input impedance change much if the 100k pot is replaced by this kit? The stereomour already has a selector switch and 6 inputs so these would have to be taken out and the holes covered.  The holes for the selector switch and the 100k pot could be used for the rca jacks but they would be off center. I would probably but hole covers in these holes and drill two new holes on opposite sides of the hole for the pot.
  How would the BeeQuiet attenuator work in the stereomour? Is there enough room? Since the Stereomour already has a selector switch and 6 input jacks the BeeQuiet attenuator would seem to be a nice alternative if workable.     
Title: Re: Surprise!
Post by: Paul Birkeland on April 21, 2013, 07:31:17 AM
Would this kit work well with the stereomour?

Yes, this is actually part of the rationale for this kit, to make a stepped attenuator available for kits like the SEX amp, Crack, and Stereomour.

The 100K input impedance of the Stereomour will allow the Submissive to drive it with a 1M pair of cables.  On the Stereomour, turn the volume control all the way up, then leave the input selector on one input.

If you wanted to do more, there are 3/8" press-in hole covers available at most hardware stores to cover up the volume pot and input selector switch holes.  If you do this, be sure to add a 100K-475K resistor between T7/T8 and T8/T9.

-PB
Title: Re: Surprise!
Post by: chard on April 21, 2013, 08:10:23 AM
Thanks Paul
Title: Re: Surprise!
Post by: tdogzthmn on April 21, 2013, 03:18:58 PM
I have a Firstwatt F5 which needs a new pre-amp.  Would the submissive work well in this application?  Ideally I would use it as the attenuator for both my SEX and F5 amps!
Title: Re: Surprise!
Post by: Paul Joppa on April 21, 2013, 04:01:52 PM
I had to download the owner's manual and do some calculating, but it appears the Firstwatt F5 needs 3vRMS for full output. So unless your DAC or phono preamp puts out 5v you need an active preamp with some gain.
Title: Re: Surprise!
Post by: tdogzthmn on April 21, 2013, 05:33:29 PM
Hmm, my source is the Halide DAC HD which I think has an output of 4.5v although it's not totally clear on their website.
Title: Re: Surprise!
Post by: wc on April 22, 2013, 10:56:09 AM
Could you use this with a Quickie?
Title: Re: Surprise!
Post by: Doc B. on April 22, 2013, 11:45:48 AM
Yes, you can put the Submissive in ahead of Quickie, S.E.X., Stereomour, Crack, etc. You simply install the submissive in the system ahead of the preamp or amp in question, turn the volume control wide open on the amp or preamp - effectively eliminating any series resistance from the internal volume control - and use the Submissive as the volume control instead.
Title: Re: Surprise!
Post by: wullymc on April 22, 2013, 02:47:01 PM
Please forgive my ignorance but I have been searching on passive volume attenuator and I just have a question. 

Right now I have a Quickie 1.1 and a Crack.  I have been reading a lot about upgrades to these systems.  Typically they involve upgrading the caps and the volume pots.

My question is instead of installing 2 TDK stepped pots in both the Quickie and Crack would it be better that I just buy a Submissive and not bother doing the pot upgrades in the Quickie and Crack (leaving the pots stock)?  I would really prefer this.

Then my set up would be Phono & DAC & CD    - Submissive - Quickie - Crack

Would this set up work?
...and then I would keep the Quickie and Crack at 100% volume and control the volume using the Submissive.

Thanks...Dave
                                     
Title: Re: Surprise!
Post by: Doc B. on April 22, 2013, 04:27:23 PM
I will suggest, with your OK, working through the analysis with a methodical approach. Bear with me - what inspired you to put a Quickie ahead of the Crack?
Title: Re: Surprise!
Post by: Paul Birkeland on April 22, 2013, 06:50:42 PM
Spot on Dave!

I put the Submissive in front of my Quickie today, I'm very pleased with the results!
Title: Re: Surprise!
Post by: wullymc on April 22, 2013, 11:19:10 PM
I will suggest, with your OK, working through the analysis with a methodical approach. Bear with me - what inspired you to put a Quickie ahead of the Crack?

Thanks Doc, Paul.  I put the Quickie ahead of the Crack as mostly for a switching device.  I currently have my Dac and phono preamp as inputs going to the Crack.  I know that I could have used just a switch from Radio Shack but I am having fun building your kits!

I still need to do the Speedball and I think I will upgrade the caps in the Quickie and Crack but instead of upgrading the pots buying the Submissive instead. 

Thanks...Dave
Title: Re: Surprise!
Post by: Doc B. on April 23, 2013, 05:11:18 AM
I suspect that you would have enough gain with the Submissive connected directly to the Crack, so you might want to try that too. Most builders find the Crack plenty sensitive. And I'm not surprised the Quicke/Submissive combo works well. It should make for sort of a Jr. Bee Pre.
Title: Re: Surprise!
Post by: wullymc on April 23, 2013, 10:55:55 AM
Thanks Doc.  Much appreciated!
Title: Re: Surprise!
Post by: wc on May 10, 2013, 07:45:06 AM
Is there an issue with paralleling more pairs of outputs. I was thinking to use it to consolidate all my analog sources and feed 3 other amps and active subs in stereo configuration.
Title: Re: Surprise!
Post by: Doc B. on May 10, 2013, 07:53:45 AM
It's a passive control, so the output impedance is relatively high, at least at one end of the range. For multiple amps you would want a lot of drive and low output impedance. That's where an active preamp with low output impedance like the BeePre comes in.
Title: Re: Surprise!
Post by: wc on May 10, 2013, 11:18:46 AM
All the amps I would be running to have their own volume controls and preamps. Such as a future quickie/class D amp combo, Yamaha integrated amp, sub amps, and an AV receiver for Zone 2 use on the patio. The sub amps and the Quickie combo would be the only ones that would need to go through the attenuator.
Title: Re: Surprise!
Post by: Doc B. on May 10, 2013, 11:30:44 AM
What is the input impedance of the sub amp?
Title: Re: Surprise!
Post by: wc on May 10, 2013, 02:52:57 PM
Not real sure. I don't currently own a sub, but I thinking of getting one in the future. What should I look for?
Title: Re: Surprise!
Post by: InfernoSTi on May 11, 2013, 09:31:26 PM
I've ordered...hoping this will be a fun little project! 

Best,
John
Title: Re: Surprise!
Post by: wullymc on May 13, 2013, 11:41:36 AM
A question.  If you leave the stock pot in a Crack and hook up a Submissive and put the Crack at full volume and used the Submissive for the volume wouldn't the sound still be affected by the stock pot in the Crack?....because basically you want to  bypass the potright?

...or would it be better to have a better pot in the Crack and  then get a Submissive?

hopefully you understand my question

thanks...Dave
Title: Re: Surprise!
Post by: Grainger49 on May 13, 2013, 11:54:13 AM
If having the pot in the circuit bothers you, you can remove the pot and replace it with a pair of $4 or $6 resistors.  Then you don't worry about the pot affecting the sound.
Title: Re: Surprise!
Post by: Doc B. on May 13, 2013, 11:57:39 AM
If you go online and look at images of the way a pot works, you will see that at full volume the entire length of the resistive element is connected only to ground, and there is no resistive element in the signal path, just the wiper contact terminal and the input terminal. So at that position the pot acts essentially as a 100K grid resistor. If one wanted to use a Submissive one could replace the pot with that configuration in the input of the Crack, by disconnecting the pot and wiring the center pin of the input jack directly to the grid of the 12AU7 then putting a 100K resistor across the RCA jack from center pin to ground. But the easiest thing to do is just turn the volume all the way up on the Crack.
Title: Re: Surprise!
Post by: wullymc on May 13, 2013, 12:03:22 PM
thanks Doc, Grainger.

Really appreciate the input.  Makes sense to me...a newb :)
Title: Re: Surprise!
Post by: wullymc on June 08, 2013, 08:37:44 AM
. But the easiest thing to do is just turn the volume all the way up on the Crack.

Hi Doc,

Would it be wise though to upgrade the Pot in the Crack to a Blue Alps or TDK and then put it at 10?...and then use the Submissive to control the volume.  Would you hear a difference by upgrading the pot in the Crack, or would you just leave the pot as is and just spend the money on the Submissive? (basically is there an audio difference between the stock pot at full and a Blue Alps, TDK pot at full?)

Thanks...Dave
Title: Re: Surprise!
Post by: 4krow on June 08, 2013, 09:14:27 AM
Just my opinion, but if I were going to use NONE of the track of the volume control, I might as well bypass it.
Title: Re: Surprise!
Post by: Grainger49 on June 08, 2013, 10:04:01 AM
I go along with Greg, the best pot is no pot at all, the best cap is no cap at all (that is a quote from Paul Joppa) and the rest.  So if you don't want to use the Crack volume control, replace it with a fixed, 0.1%, designer, $10 resistor. 
Title: Re: Surprise!
Post by: Paul Birkeland on June 08, 2013, 04:28:05 PM
If the pot is up all the way, it's acts as a pair of 100K input resistors (expensive ones at that).  None of the pot's resistive track will be in series with the signal.

-PB
Title: Re: Surprise!
Post by: 4krow on June 08, 2013, 05:18:20 PM
Ummm, does no woman is better than an expensive woman apply here to the pot rational?
Title: Re: Surprise!
Post by: Paul Birkeland on June 08, 2013, 06:08:01 PM
Well, you need some resistance from input to ground to keep the grid voltage at (or very close to) 0V.  The pot all the way up will just act like a ~92K carbon resistor.
-PB
Title: Re: Surprise!
Post by: Grainger49 on June 09, 2013, 03:10:35 AM
Ummm, does no woman is better than an expensive woman apply here to the pot rational?

Nope, only applies to components in a circuit.
Title: Re: Surprise!
Post by: wullymc on June 09, 2013, 02:01:02 PM
Thanks. Guys,

I appreciate your input.

So no upgraded pot and spend the money on the Submissive!
Title: Re: Surprise!
Post by: 4krow on June 09, 2013, 03:23:19 PM
I really like the idea of the Submissive. So much so, I have used similar ideas in my builds...not going back anytime soon.
Title: Re: Surprise!
Post by: Paul Joppa on June 10, 2013, 01:49:37 PM
Do the experiments yourself! Listen critically with the stock pot, then with Submissive (stock pot all the way up), and - eventually - disconnect the stock pot entirely. Each step is easily reversed, and you will learn a bunch.
Title: Re: Surprise!
Post by: earwaxxer on June 10, 2013, 04:10:57 PM
I havent noticed much if any difference between a pot at full volume and one that was removed from the circuit. I hoped for more. Not there. Its fun though, when you have various options of what you are going to use as your preamp. I have found that the digital attenuation seems to be the least desirable way of attenuation.. so far.
Title: Re: Surprise!
Post by: earwaxxer on June 10, 2013, 05:40:20 PM
Its funny, I'm doing that now with my sub amp. I have a T-amp in front of my Crown. I think its better to run the Crown at full volume and adjust the T-amp accordingly. That could change...
Title: Re: Surprise!
Post by: madbrayniak on December 16, 2013, 07:08:14 AM
I wanted to post this here instead of making a new thread.

I have made it known in other threads that I want a HT bypass in my tube preamp so that I can have tube based gear for music and then then run my receiver through it for movies/tv.

Would the Submissive work as pretty much the ultimate HT Bypass?

Run my Quickie and my AVR through it?....I dont want to have to have my tube preamp on while watching a movie and waste tube life...

Title: Re: Surprise!
Post by: aragorn723 on July 23, 2014, 04:22:45 PM
Spot on Dave!

I put the Submissive in front of my Quickie today, I'm very pleased with the results!

what was the sonic benefit when doing this?

Dave