Soft start kit alternate tubes

johnsonad · 10487

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline paswen

  • Newbie
  • *
    • Posts: 5
Reply #30 on: January 13, 2014, 01:08:15 PM
I have been cobbling adaptors together to try different driver tubes in the 300b paramount with soft start. A CV181 runs nicely at the preset mA current values with IMO unbeatable midrange but they are pricey. The 2c51has better soundstage and dynamics. Makes sense as it was optimized for the circuit values. I did bolt on a bigger heatsink and changed R1 to get about 12 mA's on the first C4S(increased by 2 mA) and changed R1 on the driver tube C4S to add the 2 mA's thru the driver( about 5.4 mA vs 3.4). I tried the CV181's again with same great midrange but now drive and soundstage like the 2C51. I tried a 6J5 as driver using one triode of the 2c51 as VR tube. Nice sound but I think I need more current thru the 6J5 maybe 6-7.5 Ma. My questions are since .6 Ma's are being shunted thru the 300k driver plate to ground resistor, can I remove this in the cap coupled 300B to get more current thru the driver and is the 300k resistor  there for the soft start operation to shunt current before the driver conducts? I would also like to try PB's suggestion of running both triodes of a 6J6 as a VR tube using 4 mA's of current rather than 4.7 of the 2C51. I am thinking I would hook both plates up to 300v  B+, grids to ground with 220ohm cc resistors and since there is one common cathode, hook that up as before. Is this reasonable or should I further my education in tube electronics before trying this at home? Thanks, Paul S



Offline Paul Birkeland

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 19774
Reply #31 on: January 13, 2014, 03:30:07 PM
The 300K resistor isn't super helpful in the context of the 300B circuit.  If you're going to remove that, you could also remove the 33K and 10,000uF capacitor to roll back to a more V1.0 style Paramount driver setup.

As far as currents go, your rationale seems about right.  You may or may not need both halves of the 6J6.


Paul "PB" Birkeland

Bottlehead Grunt & The Repro Man


Online Paul Joppa

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 5838
Reply #32 on: January 13, 2014, 04:19:30 PM
The 33K/10000uF is the soft start, and eliminates an audible thump even with cap coupling.

The soft start almost completely eliminates the arcing that occurs with a (very few) 2A3s, but there remains a very small "tic" that is audible from the speaker. The 300K eliminates that. To the best of my recollection, there is no such tic when using the cap-coupled 300B circuit.

Paul Joppa


Offline Paul Birkeland

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 19774
Reply #33 on: January 14, 2014, 10:21:20 AM
I haven't heard the tic in my V1.0 Paramounts, just what I presume is the TL431 turning on.  (Kind of a funny chirp)

Paul "PB" Birkeland

Bottlehead Grunt & The Repro Man


Online Paul Joppa

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 5838
Reply #34 on: January 14, 2014, 11:37:31 AM
The tic - and the arcing - only happen with a few specific tubes.

Paul Joppa


Offline johnsonad

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 1670
Reply #35 on: January 24, 2014, 02:34:21 PM
I put a switch from the PF cap to ground that I flip after 30 sec or so to hopefully prevent the magnetization of the OPT. The other day I flipped it to quickly and heard and interesting chirp or rather a zip.  Is this common to the regulator or the tube as you suggest PJ?

Aaron Johnson


Offline johnsonad

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 1670
Reply #36 on: March 23, 2014, 08:37:33 AM
An update.  I'm using the 6SN7 tube and am very happy with it.  My 10k pots have plenty of adjustment left so they haven't been swapped yet for 20k pots.  The loss of gain so far hasn't kept me from listening to music at an normal levels.

Aaron Johnson


Offline johnsonad

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 1670
Reply #37 on: November 26, 2014, 02:43:41 PM
Would it be possible/ideal to use the soft start kit with a 45 as a driver tube in a (my oddball) Paramount circuit? Filaments and shunt reg side aside, could it work?

I'm going to change the OP of this amp to 350 P-k, -74v, 60mA, 3k from the current 350 p-k, -76v, 50mA, 5k.  This may be enough alone to improve the sound (they are not driving the 755a's as well as I would like) but a full DHT amp would be pretty cool!

Thoughts?? :)

Aaron Johnson


Offline Paul Birkeland

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 19774
Reply #38 on: November 27, 2014, 07:51:07 AM
Would it be possible/ideal to use the soft start kit with a 45 as a driver tube
The actual question is whether it would be possible to use the 45 as a driver tube in the Paramount, which it would, but you would need a very unusual (unusual means hard to find and very expensive) interstage transformer to make this possible. 

I'm going to change the OP of this amp to 350 P-k, -74v, 60mA, 3k from the current 350 p-k, -76v, 50mA, 5k.
This is a bit of a separate question from the driver tube question, are you running 2A3's or 300B's?

Paul "PB" Birkeland

Bottlehead Grunt & The Repro Man


Offline johnsonad

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 1670
Reply #39 on: November 27, 2014, 08:18:35 AM
Thanks for the reply PB.  As to the OP, that is for a 300B.  As to the 45 as a driver, as far as an IT goes, something like a Tango NC-20/F? I'm just throwing ideas around.  I had considered something like the 801A too after looking at a few of Thomas Mayer's builds but Dan had mentioned the 45 as something to consider.

Aaron Johnson


Offline Paul Birkeland

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 19774
Reply #40 on: November 27, 2014, 08:56:17 AM
Yeah, if you're going down the interstage route, then the soft start driver board doesn't make a whole ton of sense.  You'll end up needing a ton of current and a reasonable amount of voltage, which would produce too much power across the C4S. 

The Tango NC-20 is a 1:1 interstage.  The 45 has a mu of about 3 nominally, so you need a ton of step-up between the driver and the output if you want full power, or you need a third tube. 

Then, you'll have to consider that interstage transformers typically don't go much above 30mA.  Since you want voltage step-up, you'll need to drive a low impedance with the 45 to accomplish that.  When you look at the 45 curves, then start drawing these steep load lines, things get pretty ugly in terms of distortion. 

The one other option I can think of is to add two transformers to the circuit.  One would be something like the Sowter 8423 to sit between the 45 and 300B.  This IT will handle a lot of current, so you can get out of the nasty areas on the curves, but it won't give enough step-up.  To get the step-up, you'd also want an input transformer.  Without siting down to crunch the numbers, a 15k:600 wired with the 600 at the input will get you some additional voltage.  All of this working together will get you back in the ballpark of reasonable gain, but at the cost of:

Interstage iron: $420
Input transformers: $150-300
New chassis, layout, prototype time for quietest transformer orientation: ???

If you want all directly heated Paramounts, it's doable with 3S4's as pentodes or other various directly heated pentodes run as pentodes. 

Paul "PB" Birkeland

Bottlehead Grunt & The Repro Man


Offline johnsonad

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 1670
Reply #41 on: November 27, 2014, 10:14:20 AM
Thank you PB, that sounds like a lot of extra work but I'll keep it on the table. The 3S4 is a potential but I would like to rule out the triodes first. How about an odd duck like the 3c24? A nice red hot tube glow and a Mu of 25.

Aaron Johnson


Offline Paul Birkeland

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 19774
Reply #42 on: November 27, 2014, 11:15:14 AM
The 3C24 tends to enjoy some grid current, which means that one would want to use a gapped input transformer to make that work. 

The EML30 will work just fine.  The nice thing about the EML30 is that it could be choke loaded right off the 300B high voltage supply without any issues.  (Maybe add an RC decoupling stage just in case)




Paul "PB" Birkeland

Bottlehead Grunt & The Repro Man


Offline johnsonad

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 1670
Reply #43 on: November 27, 2014, 11:29:37 AM
Man that's an expensive tube!  Mind you, not as much as a pair if IT transformers but still ;) 

Thanks for taking the time to bounce some ideas PB.  I've got a lot to think about.

Aaron Johnson


Offline RPMac

  • Full Member
  • ***
    • Posts: 220
Reply #44 on: December 20, 2014, 04:09:52 AM
Aaron, seems like we are wanting to go in the same direction.

I bought the proto-type Stereomour with the 3B7 DHT driver paired with my BeePre. I never get tired of listening to them. Tweaked Klipsch Heresy II and source is mainly internet radio through a squeezebox classic...improvements can be made on both ends.

I want to put a DHT driver direct coupled in my Paraglows, but after reading this thread, I know I don't have the knowledge. Best I can do is work off of a schematic.

I have the soft start kit on my bench with the boards populated. Probably what I end up settling with.

Robert