Stock Crack vs. Modded Crack

ALL212 · 6194

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Offline Paul Birkeland

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Reply #15 on: May 21, 2015, 11:06:22 AM
First bottlehead to build a tube powered soldering station wins...Doc's heart?
If you could build an all-tube soldering station with tube based temperature control, I'm quite confident that Doc B. would come up with some kind of ridiculous award.

Paul "PB" Birkeland

Bottlehead Grunt & The Repro Man


Offline 2wo

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Reply #16 on: May 21, 2015, 06:00:47 PM
He threw that some years ago, don't think anyone bit...John

John S.


Offline Doc B.

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Reply #17 on: May 22, 2015, 06:17:03 AM
Actually one guy did. I think we worked out that the thyratron chosen might have been a little underpowered. Plus the guys all thought the thyratron control was useless without temp sensing and nobody wanted to work out that part of it.

This would be similar to my talking to John Swenson about an all tube DAC many years ago. Not tubes tacked onto a DAC chip, a real honest tube demux with tube flip flops running into a resistor ladder. John kinda won the argument against when we calculated something like 50 amps required just for all of the tube heaters and a full size equipment rack or two to hold all the parts.

Dan "Doc B." Schmalle
President For Life
Bottlehead Corp.


Offline ALL212

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Reply #18 on: May 24, 2015, 07:27:29 AM
Request for guidance:

I've got a Hitachi V222 20Mhz o'scope.  I think what I'm looking for is possible differences in post power supply noise of the stock vs. modified Crack and then also any noise or "disturbances in the force" at the headphone outputs (I've no clue what to expect - maybe nothing...).  I plan to use an app on my iPhone to generate wave forms to look at on the output.

What spots should I be poking the lead of the o'scope into to find such fun stuff.  The output is obvious - I can handle that one  ::)

I think: 
1)  The 270k resistor in the PS as one spot.
2)  Heaters come straight from the transformer so I wouldn't expect differences here.
3)  At the headphone outputs.

Should power supply checks be done with a load or should that be part of my experience here?  I can rig a resistor across the headphone jack to simulate that.

Any other places?
« Last Edit: May 24, 2015, 07:31:17 AM by ALL212 »

Aaron Luebke


Offline Paul Birkeland

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Reply #19 on: May 24, 2015, 07:31:45 AM
I think what I'm looking for is possible differences in post power supply noise of the stock vs. modified Crack
A lot of multimeters will measure AC voltage in the presence of DC, so you may not need the scope for that.  Otherwise, you could measure across the 270K resistor.

Should power supply checks be done with a load or should that be part of my experience here?  I can rig a resistor across the rca terminals to simulate that.
You can do it with both, but I wouldn't expect too much difference at the power supply with loads.  Since the headphone jack is the output, that is where you'll want to apply your loads. 

Paul "PB" Birkeland

Bottlehead Grunt & The Repro Man


Offline ALL212

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Reply #20 on: May 24, 2015, 04:20:51 PM
Crack Stock:

I've used an app on my iphone to sweep from 200 to 20k.  Output is take from the headphone jack, input at the RCA.  Voltage's are matched. 

I really expected to see a voltage drop or some distortion at the exteme's.  Nothing - it looks fine end to end.

Video of it here.


Aaron Luebke


Offline ALL212

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Reply #21 on: May 26, 2015, 03:39:58 PM
I just have not the tools to do the measurements that would reveal the magic.  I ran the same scan on the modified Crack with the same tubes and everything looked the same.

Going to close this project down before I blow something up and really regret my curiosity!   :-\

Aaron Luebke


Offline ALL212

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Reply #22 on: June 11, 2015, 04:50:06 PM
Added speedball and instead of spending $$$ on some huge film caps for the outputs I tipped a pair of Nichicon electrolytics with some small Solens.  Also threw a small film cap on the last power supply filter cap.

(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi905.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fac253%2Fall212212%2FDSC_3270_zpskrghjz3d.jpg&hash=905ee706a190aad72040b863f356499ce6bd5ff1)

This one is going on the chopping block - don't need two of 'em.

Aaron Luebke


Offline Grainger49

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Reply #23 on: June 11, 2015, 11:47:22 PM
Was this the "Stock" Crack to start with?  What did the bypass caps do?



Offline ALL212

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Reply #24 on: June 12, 2015, 01:05:00 AM
Yep, this was Mr. Stock a day ago.

I violated the Bottlehead policy of one thing at a time ....again.... so I'm not sure if the bypass caps help but my soul feels better now that I done did it.  I have a box of orphaned parts and the Nichi's and Solens came from there so my immediate cost was some time and solder.

However, bass on this mod is much better.  It wasn't noticeably thin on the stock unit unless I switched over to my modded Crack and then it was apparent that the bottom was shallow. 

I know the Speedball assists in that area.  The big Nichi's were sitting in a drawer next to the Solen's, my ADHD kicked in and BOOM - bigger caps with bypasses installed.

Reason for the upgrades is that I have a buyer - he wanted to know if I could touch it up and put the speedball in without spending the big bucks for those 100uf film caps.  This is my attempt at that.

I gotta say again - it's so much fun putting power to these when you're done and finding out that it works.  Then put the cans on your head and just sit back and say .....DAMN, that's nice!!!

Aaron Luebke


Offline Strikkflypilot

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Reply #25 on: June 12, 2015, 08:24:57 AM
Beautiful looking job!

Home system:
Sources: Ibasso DX90, Google Chromecast Audio optical out
DAC: Schiit Gumby
Amp: Bottlehead Mainline
http://bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?topic=7463.0
Phones: HD800S

Office:
Sources: Iphone/ Ipod
DAC: Dragonfly Red+Jtrbug
Amp: Crack/Speedball heavily modded
Phones: HD580,HD600 grilles


Offline Deluk

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Reply #26 on: June 13, 2015, 12:46:04 PM
Yes that looks "right" to my eyes. Can you give us the exact details of the Nichi's, Solens and the film cap please? My Crack/SB kit arrived a few days ago, so early days for me, but I like to have ideas.



Offline ALL212

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Reply #27 on: June 13, 2015, 02:35:42 PM
Yes that looks "right" to my eyes. Can you give us the exact details of the Nichi's, Solens and the film cap please? My Crack/SB kit arrived a few days ago, so early days for me, but I like to have ideas.

Forgive me if I chuckle a bit on the "right" part and only for my own sake - I'm just winging it, but it did come out well.  8)

"Men" laws:
1)  Bigger has to be better ;)
2)  More is always better   ;D
3)  Adding "stuff" couldn't possibly cause a problem  :-\
4)  there is no rule 5  :o
6)  Film beats Electrolytic (kinda like rock, paper, scissors, type of beat)    ???
There are more but I think those are the three (read carefully - this is guy talk) that I adhered to on the tail end of this build.

The proper way of dealing with the electrolytic output caps would be to completely replace them with some mongo (remember Mongo?  Knocked a horse out in Blazing Saddles?!) sized film caps that would make it near impossible to put the plate back in the base.  I think Doc would say that the proper way would be to add the speedball and quit mucking things up.  However, it is quite possible to double the cost of this headphone amp merely by the purchase of such beasts and that was not my intention.  In this case a word foreign to me but occasionally referenced by my wife comes to mind...budget.

The stock output caps are 100uf, 65v, 85 degree caps - perfectly suited for the job at hand.  Apply Rule 1 - I put in Nichicon PW 100uf, 450v, 105 degree caps - physically about 4 times the size of the originals.  And I still did not feel complete.   :-[  So I threw in some Solen 1.5 uf film caps in parallel to the replacement caps (see rule #2 and add rule #6).  I did keep within the voltage range - I think those were 600v caps  ::).  This kept me from feeling guilty about not having film caps in the output.  Based on those specs I believe the top plate will evaporate before any degradation of the replacement caps will occur.

The thought process behind carefully selecting these replacements had everything to do with what was left laying around after 10 years or so of changing "stuff".

In other threads (and on my own modified Crack) there are discussions on modding the power supply and one easy step is to add a film cap to the last electrolytic (and in some cases folks have applied rule #6 to the last electrolytic cap).  What I added in there was a Dayton .01uf 400v cap left over from the Reduction build.  See rule #3.

Bass definitely picked up - now, was that due to the speedball or my own carefully thought out and crafted advanced designs? 

We may never know...   ::)

Side note:  I had some "fuzz" (distortion?) on upper bass and some vocals - just barely noticeable.  I pulled the tubes from my first Crack (ok...that' really doesn't sound right) and "fuzz" disappeared.  I rolled tubes for 24 hours and as a last test put the originals back in - "fuzz" either gone or reduced to unhearable levels.  Maybe break in time should be applied.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2015, 02:39:13 PM by ALL212 »

Aaron Luebke


Offline Deluk

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Reply #28 on: June 17, 2015, 10:03:00 AM
Thanks for the numbers. Are "men" allowed to think "small but perfectly formed"? Seems to describe Bottlehead watts for example.  ;D



Offline ALL212

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Reply #29 on: June 17, 2015, 01:27:05 PM
I believe that is a phrase straight out of the Bottlehead Club Handbook.  Probably page 1.   ;D

Aaron Luebke