i'm dumb and finished the topplate upside down

berlinguyinca · 2738

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Offline berlinguyinca

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on: June 05, 2019, 09:55:11 AM
So I got my crack and first thing I did, was spend the better part of 2 weeks sanding/polishing/painting the topplate, only to realize that it's now flipped. So things which should be left are right. I'm sure I'm not the first one who did this...

So how do I continue from here, Does a manual exist, where all the pins are numbered for people like me... which do things inverted?



Online Paul Birkeland

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Reply #1 on: June 05, 2019, 09:59:52 AM
The last time I saw this, the builder attempted to build the kit upside down.  It came out so horribly that I would've been afraid to plug it in.  If you insist on doing this, just be aware that what you will build will not be a Crack and we will not really be able to offer any support if it doesn't work, as everything will be different. 

I would just polish the other side.

-PB

Paul "PB" Birkeland

Bottlehead Grunt & The Repro Man


Offline Doc B.

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Reply #2 on: June 05, 2019, 10:18:04 AM
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So how do I continue from here, Does a manual exist, where all the pins are numbered for people like me... which do things inverted?

Dan "Doc B." Schmalle
President For Life
Bottlehead Corp.


Offline berlinguyinca

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Reply #3 on: June 05, 2019, 10:19:47 AM
how will this not be a crack? The only difference is going to be that the plugs are right to left instead of left to right. I'm not sure I follow the logic. Refinishing is not really an option at this tage sadly. Due to time constraints and having to sand ~30 layers of paint an airbrushing

Do you have a reference why it turned out badly? Is it because some cables are slightly longer, etc?



Offline berlinguyinca

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Reply #4 on: June 05, 2019, 10:21:58 AM


seriously? I kinda expected, yeah countless people have done this, here you go this is the alternate version no big deal from the company founder/owner. This is a bit dishearting .



Offline Tom-s

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Reply #5 on: June 05, 2019, 10:45:21 AM
Problem is. The layout of a tube amp is critical for its operation (hum/cable length/safety).
Hum/cable length changes will be ok while it's no longer a normal Crack. But safety is the issue here. A mistake is easily made when building everything 180 degrees and having parts that only fit one-way being directional aswel.

Bottlehead is in for great support of all their products IME. But the operation your about to start is vastly different from the original product design.



Online Paul Birkeland

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Reply #6 on: June 05, 2019, 11:00:09 AM
how will this not be a crack? The only difference is going to be that the plugs are right to left instead of left to right.
That's what you believe to be true now.   If it was such a trivial affair, you wouldn't have landed here to ask about it in the first place. 

Time constraints are irrelevant, how long will it take you to debug your work when you have a one-off component?

Paul "PB" Birkeland

Bottlehead Grunt & The Repro Man


Offline berlinguyinca

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Reply #7 on: June 05, 2019, 11:55:19 AM
Problem is. The layout of a tube amp is critical for its operation (hum/cable length/safety).
Hum/cable length changes will be ok while it's no longer a normal Crack. But safety is the issue here. A mistake is easily made when building everything 180 degrees and having parts that only fit one-way being directional as well.

Bottlehead is in for great support of all their products IME. But the operation your about to start is vastly different from the original product design.

I understand this and the only concern I have are the tube sockets. Since one is not labeled and the other one has no labels on the picture in the documentation, while it has actual labels on the socket. My biggest question is really, does B1 refer to pin 1 on the socket? If yes it's trivial in case of Tube B.

Second tube socket seems to be easy to count out the pins so non-issue.

regarding support, I only have heard good things about bottlehead and been lurking on these forums for the better part of ~6 years at this stage. Just asking a question about a product, especially since you point out it's a safety issue and getting an inverted picture is just bad taste and the wrong time for humor. Unless the said picture is provided as a joke and followed up with providing some basic assistance.



Online Paul Birkeland

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Reply #8 on: June 05, 2019, 12:14:52 PM
getting an inverted picture is just bad taste and the wrong time for humor. Unless the said picture is provided as a joke and followed up with providing some basic assistance.
Yes, the basic assistance is that what you are doing is a really bad decision.  I looked through our archives to find the thread from the other builder who built his Crack on the wrong side of the chassis, but it appears that he deleted his post.  The outcome of that situation was that he had to buy new wire, electronics, and hardware bags, then start his build over.  In this thread we are attempting to prevent a repeat of these events.

 Additionally, what you would need to complete a build like this would be a new layout, new wire lengths, etc. and we will absolutely not provide a new manual for one customer, nor would you want to wait the 8-10 weeks that it would take us to write one for you.

Paul "PB" Birkeland

Bottlehead Grunt & The Repro Man


Offline mudvin

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Reply #9 on: June 05, 2019, 12:33:02 PM
Since you are time / price constrained

I would suggest just sanding off any paint on the other side and bring it back to the original brushed finish. Also sand off the reverse side of the plate where the ground connections and transformer screws will attach.

Then you can get building and listening in a minimum of time.

No it is not going to look how you originally envisaged, however that's life with craft projects and unfortunately, sometimes you have to recover from a mistake.

Learn from the experience, enjoy the amp, and when you are ready build another (or a SEX) with the look you originally wanted.




Offline berlinguyinca

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Reply #10 on: June 05, 2019, 12:36:18 PM
Yes, the basic assistance is that what you are doing is a really bad decision.  I looked through our archives to find the thread from the other builder who built his Crack on the wrong side of the chassis, but it appears that he deleted his post.  The outcome of that situation was that he had to buy new wire, electronics, and hardware bags, then start his build over.  In this thread we are attempting to prevent a repeat of these events.

this is fine and I appreciate you looking. I'm still not sure why it was all bad and what his problems were, but I think that's why I considered this to be a great product so you can make it yours and customize it. It is after all the whole point of this kit.

Additionally, what you would need to complete a build like this would be a new layout, new wire lengths, etc. and we will absolutely not provide a new manual for one customer, nor would you want to wait the 8-10 weeks that it would take us to write one for you.

I'm sorry that you assumed I'm asking for a complete newly written manual. I honestly thought that after being around for such a long period of time, this company might have seen such an issue before and addressed this in the past. I did not ask for new wires, a new kit, etc at any given time.

Literally, the only thing I'm trying to figure out is the inverted pinout of the A tube since it has no numbers on it.



Deke609

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Reply #11 on: June 05, 2019, 12:56:29 PM
Literally, the only thing I'm trying to figure out is the inverted pinout of the A tube since it has no numbers on it.

The tube sockets and the transformer, being centered, will not be inverted (unless you mount them on the wrong side, which would make wiring literally impossible). So the mounting and numbering of these parts will be exactly as it appears in the manual.  (I''ll add that I don't think rotating the tube sockets 180 would help - in fact, I think it would make things even more difficult)

The challenge will be wiring these components from the opposite sides.  Assuming you can keep the inverted layout straight in your head, you'll need more wire and need to spend a fair amount of time figuring out new wiring paths. And I suspect you will end up having to install wires across one another that you'd prefer to keep distanced from one another -- e.g., signal wire and high AC voltage wire.  All of which could detrimentally impact sound quality, noise, hum etc.  But it's doable.

I commiserate with your situation. I've made my fair share of similar errors.

Derek



Offline Doc B.

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Reply #12 on: June 05, 2019, 01:29:25 PM
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Literally, the only thing I'm trying to figure out is the inverted pinout of the A tube since it has no numbers on it.

A nine pin miniature socket is always 1-9 clockwise from the gap, viewed from the bottom. In our limited experience (25 years) we have seen the reverse layout turn into a big mess for several customers, and I can only think of one guy who had lots of scratch building experience and pulled it off. I've screwed it up myself. That is why our policy for years has been to talk people out of it.

Dan "Doc B." Schmalle
President For Life
Bottlehead Corp.


Offline caffeinator

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Reply #13 on: June 06, 2019, 05:34:02 AM
Hi, Berlinguyinca,

Not to gainsay the other posters, but if at all possible, build it stock. I'd suggest acquiring a new top plate, building it stock, and if you like it, build another kit on your flipped top plate after you have at least the stock build experience. Incorporating a mod into a first build is chancy at best - highly likely to result in problems and the risk of ending up with an incomplete project - and fairly stranded without support - is very high as well. Even having many builds under my belt, the first time I attempted this became the last time I attempted this, and this wasn't a flipped layout, which is an extreme mod.

I'd offer a comment about support. Bottlehead's support policy, both through their team and by offering and moderating this forum, is amazingly generous and highly effective. However, providing this high level of support for modified projects isn't scalable, and doing it for one means doing it for an unsustainable many. I don't believe I've ever purchased a product whose warranty would be honored had I modified it, and can't imagine why Bottlehead's products would be any different.

Having built mirror-imaged amps before, I can say that some parts of a layout and circuit just don't mirror, and it's not as straightforward as it seems to be at first blush. Yes; wire lengths will be different, but, mirrored or not, the pinout on tube sockets and other components will always be the same, so some connections will not look just like the mirror image of their stock counterparts. Even with this experience, when I built my pair of Bottlehead Paramounts, I considered, and quickly discarded, the notion of building mine as a mirror-imaged pair. The Bottlehead layouts have been carefully developed, optimized, and documented in the manual, and as I said, a great many components, if not most, just don't mirror. My time was, as is yours, limited, and I didn't want to risk a pair of unfinished paperweights sitting on my workbench.

If you're dead-set on attempting the flipped or mirrored version of your Crack, I'd suggest a hybrid approach, as opposed to attempting a full-on mirror. I think another poster may have been alluding to this as well; perhaps you meant this too, so I apologize if I've misunderstood your questions and am restating the obvious.

The core of the layout is on the center of the top plate, so it's the same when flipped. Keep that portion unaltered, and build as the manual instructs. Number all terminals around each component (use a sharpie marker on the bottom of the top plate) the same as the manual shows, even around the components which are in different locations. The headphone socket, the RCA jacks, the power entry module, the volume pot, the on/off switch will have to be connected to/from the same terminal numbers as in the manual, but the wire routings and lengths may be different in a lot of cases. Here, you're definitely on your own, and at risk of inducing hum and noise. I think at least one reason the parts are where they are is the Bottlehead team has made a layout that minimizes hum and noise; power and signal lines are keys to this, and you'll have to move them.

And, fwiw, I, too, have painted top plates on the wrong side before. Don't drink and paint! Even though I spent a fair amount of time on prep and paint, I got over it and got out the belt sander - an amazing productivity tool, btw (be sure to wear a mask and eye protection), and got on with it. Yes; there was a bit of a time penalty and delay to do this, but I'm sure that was saved many times over in a smooth and predictable build.

Hope this helps; whatever you do, good luck with your project.



Offline ALL212

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Reply #14 on: June 06, 2019, 06:17:19 AM
Having just built one on a custom top plate...

I have a stock crack top plate available.  You pay shipping...done.

Aaron Luebke