Denon DL-S1

joralieu · 4712

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline joralieu

  • Full Member
  • ***
    • Posts: 78
on: November 30, 2022, 09:37:11 AM
I have an Eros 2 on order. I have Denon DL-S1 moving coil cart. I inquired about  this cart earlier and was told that this would not be a good match with the eros 2. I noticed the chart on the sowter website that shows  a 9570 transformer would work with the DL-S1. Really like the DL-S1, been using it with a Channel D Lino that has computer based software to rip vinyl to my computer. Pretty much done with that and want to go to an all analog rig. Any advice would be appreciated. Love building these things.
Thanks
Joe



Offline Paul Birkeland

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 19316
Reply #1 on: November 30, 2022, 11:34:09 AM
I wrote a few different responses to this but ended up deleting them all.

The DL-S1 has both high internal impedance and very low output.  I would not recommend using this with a tube preamp/step-up transformer combination.

Paul "PB" Birkeland

Bottlehead Grunt & The Repro Man


Offline joralieu

  • Full Member
  • ***
    • Posts: 78
Reply #2 on: November 30, 2022, 02:39:11 PM
Okay DL-S1 is out, what about a Denon 103 ?



Offline Paul Birkeland

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 19316
Reply #3 on: November 30, 2022, 03:18:49 PM
A 103 or a 103R?

Paul "PB" Birkeland

Bottlehead Grunt & The Repro Man


Offline joralieu

  • Full Member
  • ***
    • Posts: 78
Reply #4 on: November 30, 2022, 04:32:27 PM
actually a zu 103



Offline Paul Birkeland

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 19316
Reply #5 on: November 30, 2022, 07:37:09 PM
The 103R is worth the stretch if you can, as it will work happily with your garden variety 1:20 step-up transformer.

The 103 has double the output of the DL-S1, but still the same wonky high impedance.  I helped a local customer setup his Eros for a DL-103, and we used a pair of these transformers:
https://www.parts-express.com/Jensen-JT-DB-E-Premium-Direct-Box-Transformer-121-246-0101?quantity=1

You'll need to carefully drill the hole pattern into the Eros top plate, but otherwise they worked really well and he's very happy with his setup.  I believe I also changed the 47K loading resistors to 100K to keep the cartridge happier.

Paul "PB" Birkeland

Bottlehead Grunt & The Repro Man


Offline Paul Joppa

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 5751
Reply #6 on: November 30, 2022, 08:19:16 PM
I tried to find enough technical information to make sense of this question, and discovered instead that both Denon and Sowter web sites seem have issues. I think Sowter has many obsolete web pages and not all the links have been updated yet; Denon only lists a few of their cartridges - perhaps the others are no longer in production? Anyhow, I'll dive into the technology in case anyone is interested:

===============================================================

Basically, you want two things - the stepup ratio to make 3mV-5mV at the Eros input, and enough impedance to maximize the cartridge performance. That last one is the killer - transformer makers say one thing, cartridge makers say another, and the internet says all kinds of things ...

Usually the load resistance is made to be much larger than the cartridge resistance (usually more than 10 times greater) which means the cart is nearly unloaded. Loading the cartridge with a smaller resistance reduces the signal voltage and damps stylus resonance(s). Some people use that damping to optimize the load on the cartridge, but 1) the decreased output voltage is severe, and 2) the damping may compensate for other high frequency problems, such as the tweeter in the speaker being used, or the listener's hearing. So everybody's result is different, especially on the internet ...  :^)

For example, 10:1 stepup presents a load of 470 ohms (into the 47K preamp input). That's more than 10 times the DL-S1's 40 ohms, but the output is still reduced to 1.35mV.

With a 20:1 stepup feeding a 47Kohm Eros input, the load presented is about 120 ohms, and the voltage losses reduce the ratio to 14 for a net output of 2.1mV to the Eros, still not ideal.

You might think that a 30:1 transformer would be the answer, but that gives a cartridge load of 52 ohms and a net stepup of 17 and 2.5mV - not much improvement at all (and probably way too much damping).

Now, some say the optimum for DL-S1 is a 100 ohm load, so you might be OK with a 20:1 ratio - Eros will be a little hissy with tube rush, though it's probably masked when music is playing. But you lose the option of trying less damping, which is often recommended on the internet.

===============================================================

On the other question, the DL-103 has twice the voltage (0.3mV) at the same 40-ohm  resistance, so it is better suited to a 10:1 stepup, net output 2.7mV. Still a little low though. With 20:1 you'd get 4.1mV, in the sweet spot but still with a maximum 120-ohm load on the cartridge.

DL-103R has a lower resistance of 14 ohms and nearly the same output - 0.30mV (Sowter) or 0.25mV (Denon). That would reduce the losses, but won't make a big difference.

Paul Joppa


Offline joralieu

  • Full Member
  • ***
    • Posts: 78
Reply #7 on: December 01, 2022, 04:26:17 AM
Thanks for the detailed explanation, I will look for a more compatible cartridge. Maybe go back to MM cartridge for this project.



Offline 2wo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 1240
  • Test
Reply #8 on: December 01, 2022, 06:08:18 PM
IMHO, it makes sense to set up with a higher output cartridge and get yourself situated. From there you can try a lower level cartridge and  whether you need to explore transformer options.

There are a lot of  variables best to divide and conquer...John

John Scanlon


Offline Thermioniclife

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
    • Posts: 752
Reply #9 on: December 01, 2022, 06:34:48 PM
Well stated John.

Lee R.


Offline joralieu

  • Full Member
  • ***
    • Posts: 78
Reply #10 on: December 02, 2022, 12:31:34 PM
Okay, any recomendations on what cart to use with a stock eros2 ? I had a shure v15mr that I liked but sold it awhile back. Like to hear what other eros 2 owners are using.



Offline Paul Birkeland

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 19316
Reply #11 on: December 02, 2022, 12:54:10 PM
I would look at adding the Sowter 1990 step-up transformers which would work with the widest variety of moving coil cartridges possible. 

The Hana SL with the 1990s set for 1:10 would be a nice combination, and I have two local Eros users in the area using this exact combination happily.  (Oddly enough the guy with the DL-103R bought a second, older Eros 1 and also has an Eros 2 with 1990s that he uses with the SL).

Paul "PB" Birkeland

Bottlehead Grunt & The Repro Man


Offline joralieu

  • Full Member
  • ***
    • Posts: 78
Reply #12 on: December 05, 2022, 04:31:55 PM
Would the Hana SL be a good match with a technics 1200 G turntable?



Offline Paul Birkeland

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 19316
Reply #13 on: December 05, 2022, 07:24:52 PM
The specs for that arm look to work quite nicely with the SL.

http://korfaudio.com/calculator

That is typically the calculator I use to check on this.

Paul "PB" Birkeland

Bottlehead Grunt & The Repro Man


Offline joralieu

  • Full Member
  • ***
    • Posts: 78
Reply #14 on: December 06, 2022, 06:02:36 AM
Would a Hana SH work without the transformers?