Just got a VPI HW19 mk IV -- plans change so quickly

[rif]

Sorry for another non-BH post, hope no one minds. I really mean to get to the foreplay but the priorities of my projects keep changing. I need to get the music sources working first...

A few days ago, I thought I could pull my systemdek iix out of the closet, level, align, etc. and start listening (ok, I had to make sure the apt holman preamp was working, and that needed TLC too). The project would be putting in a new arm that I bought years ago and cartridge.  Guess what -- lets just say I didn't need a stethoscope to hear the motor.  So I thought about it and decided to start anew rather than try to repair.

Yesterday, I didn't know what a HW19 was. After some intensive research, I now own a HW19 mk IV, and can't wait for delivery. It has an audioquest PT6 arm, but no cart.  So looking here for any ideas. I'm told my current grado platinum is a poor match since it will likely cause hum.

Any cart. recommendations? I've briefly read about 2 denons: DL160 (now discontinued) and the DL103R.  Budget is flexible but around 500-600 (including a SUT or solid state pre-phono amp if needed). Don't mind used or kits for the pre-phono amp, of course, but I'm somewhat skeptical about used carts.

thanks again for all your thoughts.

[Grainger49]

You are in the right place for discussions of turntables of any kind.  The Bottlehead kit table is long gone.

I have had a HW-19 (no mark, it is the first version, now upgraded) for about 20 years.  Still quiet even with a stethoscope on the table.  You and I are the only guys I know who use one for this.

I sought to copy a system I heard that sounded great.  It was a VPI, Souther Linear Arm and a Grado (next to the top of the line) cartridge.  I have had two Grado cartridges in my VPI and never a trace of hum.  

I now have a Sonata-1 and the system is pretty darned quiet.  The only noise is a vibration from the sub amp.  As the cartridge tracks toward the center there is no hum increase.

I'd say try it.  I cannot imagine why a newer motor, like yours, could radiate any more hum than mine (which is nothing).

In other words I'm pressing the BS buzzer on this myth.

[ssssly]

You can still find the 160s around. I would grab a couple before stock runs out. The 103 is a great sounding cart as well.

I have a hw19 as well with a modded rb250. Have never traced hum on it to a cart. If that mkIV still has the spring suspension in it, switch it to the solid suspension. You will notice the difference immediately.

[pboser]

I have an HW-19 upgraded to Mk IV as well - since I live close to VPI world headquarters, I feel I have to!  And Harry and Sheila are great people.
When I get time (hah!) to tear it down I'm ready to do the suspension switch from the springs to the new type.  Mine has a JMW-10 tonearm on it, but I formerly had an HW-19 Jr. with an RB300.  It was great too, and now belongs to a buddy who loves it.

rif, many years ago I bought a VPI VTA adjuster intending to use it on the Rega tonearm, but it is drilled for the Audioquest arm, and I never got around to having it machined to fit the Rega.  If you're interested in having the ability to adjust VTA, give me a shout.  pboser at yahoo dot com

Pete

[rif]

pboser and ssssly:

sounds like you both have had rega arms on an HW.  I have a modified RB250 (bought years ago, never used: OL strucral mod, incognito wire, incognito VTA)), that I was going to sell this week on audiogon since the table comes with an Audioquest PT6.

 Do you know how the mod'ed 250 compares to the PT6? If I were to keep the 250, I'd have to get a new armboard as their geometry is different. (the table comes with a Super Tonearm board, don't know what that means).

pboser: sending you an email. we may be neighbors.

[ssssly]

My arm is very similar to yours. Has been a long time since I have heard a PT6 though. So unfortunately I can't offer you a comparison other than I like them both. Or at least I remember liking the PT6 when I heard it. 

The super tonearm board just means that it is separate from the rest of the plinth. So you can replace just the tonearm board for different tonearms unlike earlier versions of the HW19. The earlier versions had a single plinth with the arm mounting hole simply drilled through it. 

[Grainger49]

rif,

Since you have the 250 with Incognito upgrades (I am using the Incognito wire on my arm) I would hold off selling anything till you determine what sounds best.

As I posted earlier the VPI Grado combination doesn't hum.  But don't let that stop you from buying a new and better cartridge.  After all (yes, I am going to say it again) the cartridge MAKES THE SOUND!  The arm and table are minor players in comparison that facilitate the cartridge at doing its job.

[ssssly]

Just cause I feel like poking at Grainger today:

The cart does make the sound, but if the arm can't track properly or apply the correct amount of pressure on the stylus to keep in in the groove, it doesn't make much sound.

Either one of those arms will certainly do the job of keeping the cart firmly where is belongs though. So I absolutely agree with Grainger.

And I hope you know I have the utmost respect for you Grainger. Have helped through more than one thing I was trying to wrap my head around. But you did type all in CAPS. So you had to know you had it coming. Tongue firmly in cheek.

[Grainger49]

Yup, absolutely!  A great cartridge in a POS arm will sound awful and damage your vinyl.  But an arm can not make a cartridge sound better than it is.  It is still a "weakest link" scenario for the electrical side of the equation (cartridge).  But a subtractive relation for the arm and table (mechanical side of the equation).  A great cartridge in an average arm will sound good, better in an exceptional arm.

Cartridges and loudspeakers are both transducers.  Inherently transducers are the least linear part of a system.  Changing them gives the biggest changes of any component, IMHO, and decades of experience.

[rif]

that's good to know since I just acquired a Denon 103R from audiogon and an MC pre kit from hagtech. Lots of variables (two carts, two arms, ok 4 four combinations) to play with now.

My big concern is this: since I'm new to this I really won't hear any difference in the arms.  As was said before they're both good enough and I think the differences will be sublte at best.  So when I listen to both, I'm going to pick the one that I wanted to keep in the first place.  For now I'm leaning on selling the rb250 without listening to it -- it's new and never mounted which will get more $$ when I sell it.  I can't very well mount it, listen, decide I don't like it, and say that to potential buyers!

[Grainger49]

You are right about the return on the RB 250.  I didn't remember it was boxed, new.

I think there are some tricks to setting up the Piccolo to match it to your 103R.  I'll look.

[rif]

My HW 19 Mk IV finally arrived!  But...things never go quite right for me.  On the back it says Mk III.  Which means it's been upgraded to Mk IV, which isn't necessarily bad, but not what I expected.  Now I have to check and research all components to verify they are at least at mk iv status.  Ugh

I think I'm OK wrt platter, bearing, and plinth. That's good. I don't think there were motor differences.  Complicating all of this is that there is no one "MK IV platter" for example.  they used different ones as the table aged. I'm going to send VPI an email -- I hear they're very friendly.

[Grainger49]

Call Harry at VPI and ask.  They know the changes better than anyone out there.  Good folks to deal with too.

[rif]

Good news Everyone! (Futurama). Let's also knock on the plinth for some good Luck!

I've resolved my concerns re mk iv and put up a target wall shelf.  I put 2 30lb toroid xformers on it as a ovrrnight stress test - I just don't trust it yet.  If all goes well I should be spinning vinyl this weekend.

I think there is some tricks to setting up the Piccolo to match it to your 103R.  I'll look.

Grainger49 - did you find Any Tricks?