Gas tube regulation

saildoctor · 12494

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Offline saildoctor

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on: July 16, 2011, 12:58:02 PM
I've gotten to thinking about the possibilities of using gas tube regulation for my Seduction after reading some of the posts here.  Paul J. thought one might be able to get ~30ma from the PT1 transformer by using a fullwave bridge and choke/cap filter.  My Seduction came with a circuit diagram for the basic model, but the goings on of the c4s upgrade are still unknown to me.  Does my upgraded Seduction have 4 x c4s loads?  Most gas tubes have a 5ma minimum - so would the total power draw be 21ma?  I traded in my computer for a mac a few months ago - so I'll have to go seek out a PC to run PSUD from.  Unless anyone knows of any similar program that will run on OS X?  Thanks for any help!

Kerry Sherwin

45 Paramounts, 6SN7 Extended FPIII, OC3 regulated Seduction
Blumenstein Orca Deluxe / 2x Orca Subs
VPI Classic / ADC CD-100x


Offline Paul Joppa

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Reply #1 on: July 16, 2011, 05:57:56 PM
Here is a picture with the quad C4S board front and center:

http://www.bottlehead.com/store.php?crn=225&rn=431&action=show_detail

You'll want another single C4S feeding around 25mA to the reg tube and preamp circuit for best performance. Using a resistor is OK but the value may depend on your power line voltage, so some trial and error will be involved. I'd use the 105v reg tubes; they have the best performance and still have plenty of compliance above the plate voltage of the 6922 tubes.

Paul Joppa


Offline barry robin

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Reply #2 on: July 16, 2011, 06:54:41 PM
hows about using something fun like a 6R7 coke bottle, or a larger 5U5G? or is the volage too off?



Offline saildoctor

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Reply #3 on: January 26, 2012, 10:55:05 AM
I've gotten my act together planning this out recently.  I'm going to try out using a (25ma) C4S feeding a 0C3 (105V) reg tube and the 4x4ma C4S's of my upgraded seduction.  One last question before I build - I'm wondering what happens with the circuit if the 0C3 fails to fire (not enough voltage/becomes damaged/etc.).  That would leave a 25ma C4S feeding into 4x4ma of C4S downstream.  Is that ok?  Would it be a good/bad idea to add a high value resistor somewhere after the 25ma?

Kerry Sherwin

45 Paramounts, 6SN7 Extended FPIII, OC3 regulated Seduction
Blumenstein Orca Deluxe / 2x Orca Subs
VPI Classic / ADC CD-100x


Offline Paul Joppa

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Reply #4 on: January 26, 2012, 12:10:23 PM
No problem - the 25mA C4S will just saturate and only drop a couple volts. I don't think you'll damage anything. No promises of course, I haven't tried it and I'm not planning to! I'll bet ti sounds great though - keep us posted!

Paul Joppa


Offline saildoctor

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Reply #5 on: February 11, 2012, 09:06:30 PM
It's up and working!  I finished up two days ago and I've listened to a few records - sounds good!  A big thanks to all the folks at bottlehead and on the forum for advise.  The only previous mods to my seduction were installing new Obbligato gold film caps - 0.1uf coupling and 1.0uf output.  I ordered a C4S manual from Eileen so that I could study up on what is going on with the circuit since I needed to make changes to the boards I had.  Despite the manual being written for the old-style boards it was easy enough to look at the newer ones and figure out components and input/output/ground.  In reading forum posts during the build I learned that the method of selecting R1 has changed since the C4S manual was written. The table within was based on different LED's than the hlmp-6000's currently used and has been replaced with a formula of R1 = 0.855/current(in amps).  The board I used as well as the nylon risers holding itself and the filter choke came out of my Paramounts after I added the soft-start upgrade.  I decided to use the side of the board that had a MJE5731A in the Q2 position because it had a higher power rating.  The bridge rectifier (mounted to a terminal strip and is squeezed under the filter choke) is made of 4x SiC Shottky diodes, the negative side of the bridge output is grounded.  The power supply is LCRC (with bleeder resistor!) and utilizes half of the original seduction power supply with the resistor replaced with 2k.  With different R values one could change the output of the PS and use a different value gas reg tube.  My value of 2k gives 152v (measured).  The 0C3 i have plugged in right now regulates at 108v.  I read in a forum post somewhere (I think?) that a C4S is happiest with at least ~30v voltage difference between input and output so this seemed appropriate.  It's getting late - I'll post a little more info tomorrow for anyone who might want to do something similar to what I've done.  I'm definately a happy camper right now! :)
« Last Edit: July 27, 2014, 06:02:58 PM by saildoctor »

Kerry Sherwin

45 Paramounts, 6SN7 Extended FPIII, OC3 regulated Seduction
Blumenstein Orca Deluxe / 2x Orca Subs
VPI Classic / ADC CD-100x


Offline Paul Joppa

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Reply #6 on: February 12, 2012, 07:28:03 PM
Sweet! Update us after you have some hours on it!

Paul Joppa


Offline saildoctor

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Reply #7 on: February 15, 2012, 08:31:52 PM
To myself it sounds gooood!  My monitors with Fostex fe207e's are not the last word in bass I'm sure, but what I am hearing sounds super.  Seems like there is much more definition in certain ranges than before.  I would definitely recommend trying this mod to anyone willing to drill an extra socket in their Seduction, and the extra holes for nylon standoffs.  Check out the pictures I posted previously in this thread to see where I placed components.  I wanted to keep the new socket centered on the top plate which required drilling out where the stock chassis ground was.  So if anyone does decide to try this out please do not overlook drilling a new spot and installing chassis ground.  Also, please keep in mind I have the anticipation upgrade installed which has a C4S load to going to each plate.  If you do not have anticipation installed you may have to design a bit different - I'm not sure.  

The following is more information (than you require probably) for anyone interested in proceeding.  It allows an Anticipation upgraded Seduction to be modified to use a choke input filter feeding into a single C4S which in turn feeds a gaseous voltage regulating tube plus Anticipation C4S board, while keeping the same PT1 transformer that comes as stock.  While the PT1 specs say 20ma max - that is most likely based upon a capacitor input filter.  A choke input filter passes current at a more steady rate than the rapid swings of a cap input filter and produces less strain/heat on a transformer.

To recap the choke input power supply:
PT1> Bridge rectifier> L > C1 > R > C2 > C4S > 0C3 (VR Tube) > 4xC4S

Bridge Rectifier - I used 1A Schottky SiC (silicon carbide) that come in a TO-220 package.  I liked the fact that they have low/no switching losses due to their operation.  I soldered them into a bridge using a 5 terminal strip placed in the hole where the previous 1st section of power supply was located.  Remember the center lug of the strip is grounded to the chassis!  Also, the metal back/tab on these are NOT isolated from the internals, so they cannot touch anything including chassis and are at dangerous voltage.  The negative side of the bridge output should be grounded.  Both sides of the rectifier input attatch to both sides of the PT1 250V secondary.  The center tap is not used and must not be grounded.  I repurposed the stock center tap wire to connect the 0C3 to the input of the anticipation C4S board.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridge_rectifier

L - For filter choke I used a Hammond 157G (30H, 595ohm, 40ma).  You could get away with a lower value choke so long as you stay above the critical inductance value.  L = (supply voltage)/(load voltage in milliamps).  That is the minimum below which voltage will spike for a given current going through.  Bigger is better for ripple reduction I'm sure, so this seemed like the one to get for me. http://ken-gilbert.com/power-supply-design-henry-pasternack

C1 & C2 - I kept the 220uf Panasonics mounted to the stock terminal strip.  Be sure to cut the old high voltage output STP wires leading out (but keep the ground wire inside connecting to the ground plane.)  You could go much smaller if you wanted and still get a good noise reduction.

R -  Replace the 1k resistor mounted between C1 & C2 with a higher watt value.  This R can act as both filter component and voltage dropper.  You can select a value which gives a filter output voltage 30V more than the VR Tube you wish to use or greater.  C4S needs a certain amount of voltage drop or greater, plus a VR tube needs this extra headroom to fire up and function.  I went with 2kohm.  If you use a different choke than this build remember that its resistance will be different and the filter's output value will be different.  Using Duncan amps PSU designer I came up with these resistance vs. output values:

500 ohm - 194V
1 kohm - 182V
1.5 kohm - 170V
2 kohm - 157V
2.5 kohm - 145V
3 kohm - 132V

C4S - I repurposed a dual C4S board that came out of paramounts during soft-start upgrade.  I highly recommend getting a C4S manual from the fine folks at Bottlehead to understand how to properly use and obtain component values.  Be aware that the new boards look different but the circuit layout is the same.  If you have a newer board it will use HLMP-6000 LED's which are different than in the old manual.  Because of this the table for determining R1 should be disregarded and instead use the formula R1 = 0.855/current(in amps).  If you screw this up like I did and order the manual table1 value you can solder a second resistor of appropriate value across R1 to get in line with the formula.  It can be lower wattage because it won't be passing much current.  With the amount of current that will be going through I chose to use the MJE5731A for Q2 because it can handle a higher wattage and easily accepts a clip on heatsink.  From forum posts of PJ's it appears the appropriate amount of bias current should be ~10% of the current being passed.  Mine is set at 2ma assuming input voltage is 157V.  The current passed in my build is set to 25ma.  Note that VR tubes require 5ma minimum to pass through to stay alight when setting C4S current.

VR Tube - I used an 0C3 but looks like an 0D3 would work well too.  Just make sure the filter output voltage is high enough according to whatever tube's specs.  Bypass across cathode/anode with a cap < or = to 0.1uf.  Above this value there be dragons.  I used one of the 0.1uf orange drops that came as coupling caps in the stock kit.  Read up on VR tubes!  Fun!  http://tubedata.milbert.com/sheets/141/g/GL874.pdf

The top of the VR tube should have both an input coming from the filter output and output wire going to the 4xC4S board input.  If you decide to mount a choke on nylon mounts be sure to attach a wire going to ground to its chassis like done on the PT1.  Also, I triple checked that the TO-220 rectifier diodes were not touching chassis - or anything else, and that no legs were soldered to the center grounded terminal lug.  This build could be done without adding a C4S to feed, but more careful selection of R will be required.  Refer to the VR tube manual to get that info.  

I hope some find this information useful!  I learned a lot during the design and execution of this build and it took awhile of searching through disparate sources to fully grok what I had got myself into.  It sounds great though, I haven't been able to stop listening to vinyl for days!
« Last Edit: February 18, 2012, 09:35:11 AM by saildoctor »

Kerry Sherwin

45 Paramounts, 6SN7 Extended FPIII, OC3 regulated Seduction
Blumenstein Orca Deluxe / 2x Orca Subs
VPI Classic / ADC CD-100x


Offline saildoctor

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Reply #8 on: February 17, 2012, 05:18:43 PM
Listening to The Thermals' - 'Now we can see' right now.  Only one problem with my bottlehead system:  I keep singing along to the music.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2012, 05:23:32 PM by saildoctor »

Kerry Sherwin

45 Paramounts, 6SN7 Extended FPIII, OC3 regulated Seduction
Blumenstein Orca Deluxe / 2x Orca Subs
VPI Classic / ADC CD-100x


Offline Grainger49

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Reply #9 on: February 18, 2012, 04:21:11 AM
Singing along is a danger, especially for those of us with a Froggy voice.  You keep wondering if there is something wrong with the bass.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2014, 05:39:41 AM by Grainger49 »



Offline gstew

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I'm getting ready to do this to my Seduction. I'd been running it with 6N1P for some time and liked them and have been using a separate transformer for the filament. To do the 0C3 regulation, I'm repackaging the power supply in a cast aluminum enclosure. I just saw the comments about the the possibility of using the PT-5 for the Seduction in this thread: http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,1822.15.html .

It looks to me that using it instead of the PT-1, sticking with the full-wave bridge rectifier using the Cree SiC diodes into a choke-input filter and otherwise keeping the same setup that SailDoctor used (while adjusting the R between the two C's to set the voltage going into the pre-0C3 C4S) should work well. AND the PT-5 would allow me to power the filments of the 6N1P without a 2nd transformer AND also allow me to go to regulated filaments.

Sounds like a win all the way around. Paul J, any others, have I missed something here? I have the PT-5 in my cart, but want to get some feedback before I pull the trigger.

Greg in Mississippi

P.S. I know the Eros would be better choice rather than re-working my Seduction this way, but part of why I'm doing this is the repackaging... the main Seduction circuit will also go into a cast ally box (similar to the recommended Hammond one for additional shielding) because I need to make the unit a bit less wide and longer to fit in my now-available area. I can do this with my several-years-old Seduction and not feel too bad. I'd feel REALLY bad chopping up an Eros this way.



Offline gstew

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Reply #11 on: December 23, 2012, 07:01:48 PM
Another question occurred to me... is there much or even any benefit going to the Bottlehead FC-1 choke instead of the Hammond 157G SailDoctor used for the PSU choke?

TIA again!

Greg in Mississippi



Offline Paul Joppa

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Reply #12 on: December 23, 2012, 07:19:36 PM
The 157G is 30 henries, the FC-1 is 0.030 henries.

The PT-5 should work well; an experiment is planned sometime in the next few months. A choke-input filter with a fullwave bridge may not produce enough voltage to fire the 0C3. I may experiment with a simple Zener regulator for the high voltage as well.

Paul Joppa


Offline saildoctor

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Reply #13 on: December 24, 2012, 10:09:45 AM
Hi Greg, the main reason I used choke-input was to get more current from the PT-1 without melting it down.  The 0C3 will need a minimum of 5ma on top of the stock current being pushed through the new C4S and then there is it's own bias current.  That adds up to more than the 20ma cap input rating.

If you use the PT-5 you could use a cap input filter because it has a much higher current rating - I think you would wind up with enough voltage to make it work.  You might want to model it with the Duncan amps PSU modeler first.  I did a search of the forum to try and find the PT-5 primary/secondary DCR values but didn't notice them?  You could still add a choke or two later in the filter too.

It's totally worth it btw.  Mine is sounding awesome with this and a RIAA cap upgrade.  I'm using some early 60's Tesla 6922's with gold grids.  I'm already scheming what to do next.  Too bad there's not enough room under the hood to squeeze another PT-1!   :)

Kerry Sherwin

45 Paramounts, 6SN7 Extended FPIII, OC3 regulated Seduction
Blumenstein Orca Deluxe / 2x Orca Subs
VPI Classic / ADC CD-100x


Offline gstew

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Reply #14 on: December 24, 2012, 10:39:14 AM
Paul & Kerry, thanks for the replies.

PT-5 is ordered.

I was confused at the voltage thing, but looking at the PT-1 again, it makes more sense... it looks to have 125v-0vct-125v (or 0v-250v where the CT is not used), where the PT-5 is 0v-135v, right? I should have cracked open my Seduction manual first, all would have been clear!

So now I see how the PT-5 may not provide enough voltage... I can try it choke-input, cap-input and voltage-doubler to see what gives me sufficient voltage. The PS caps I have are 150uf/350v Black Gates, so I have a little headroom there.

I do have the Hammond 157G choke already... DUH about the difference in inductance rating between it and the BHead one, I always have had issues with decimal points (sorta like dyslexia!). If it doesn't get used as the input element of the  PS, it'll likely go between the two caps.

This rebuild will have a few cap upgrades too, both couplers & RIAA. Very curious to see how it sounds.

Again, thanks. I'll post pix & impressions when done.

Greg in Mississippi