Photosensitive tubes

Bolivar · 10810

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Grainger49

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 7175
Reply #15 on: November 29, 2011, 11:37:32 PM
I hope to remember this when I sit down for some listening today.  I'll get it all on and then focus my camera at different tubes, one at a time.  My Canon has a green focusing light.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 12:53:48 AM by Grainger49 »



Offline Bolivar

  • Jr. Member
  • **
    • Posts: 21
Reply #16 on: November 30, 2011, 12:27:51 AM
Ok,

I tried it with two cameras just now and both flashes do cause a sound, a short popping sound this time. One of the cameras has orange colored range finder led, but that didn't make any noise. Perhaps the led needs to be of the bright white variety.

I have a ne555 timer circuit connected to a red led, so I thought if I change the led to a white one and add a potentiometer to control the pulse time, I could perhaps create varying sound frequencies through the tube.

Valtteri Nurmi

AMB Gamma2 DAC --> Crack --> Beyerdynamic DT880


Offline elcraigo

  • Full Member
  • ***
    • Posts: 107
Reply #17 on: November 30, 2011, 12:05:31 PM
I think it's hard to say if the camera flash interference was from light or the electromagnetic field or both.
With this in mind; is it the light or just the electromagnetic field?
Try optically filtering the light. Maybe dark paper.

555 timer and different light color:
Red to Blue would be pretty close to opposite ends of the visible spectrum.
If it really is just light; going just beyond visible, IR to UV could be interesting:
The data carrier frequency is probably too high to hear from an infra-red (IR) remote. I think the frequency is around 35 kHz.
If a Blue led works better than Red, then a ultraviolet diode could be interesting.
I have low power ultraviolet diodes at work (around 350-250 nm) I could bring home to try for grins.

OK that's why I listen in the dark - just kidding.

Craig Lewis (elcraigo is a nickname a good friend who grew up in Mexico gave me)


Offline Grainger49

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 7175
Reply #18 on: November 30, 2011, 02:04:52 PM
Tried my camera on all 6 tubes, nothing.



Offline Bolivar

  • Jr. Member
  • **
    • Posts: 21
Reply #19 on: November 30, 2011, 02:28:33 PM
Ok, I did more experimenting.

I filtered the light with different colored paper. Results:

Plain white - sound still there
Red - nothing
Green - nothing
Blue - sound comes through, same as white paper

Inspired by this, I soldered a blue led to the timer circuit as I don't have any white ones. Success! Varying sound frequencies as I adjust the potentiometer. And this simple circuit should not be giving off any other electromagnetic interference like my phone possibly could have done.

As to why only this one tube makes noises, I heard an interesting theory. Perhaps there's a small amount of gas in the tube that is ionized by the light.
Maybe some you should get yourself these Cifte 12au7 tubes. Even if they don't all react to light, they're still very good sounding tubes : )


Valtteri Nurmi

AMB Gamma2 DAC --> Crack --> Beyerdynamic DT880


Offline ironbut

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
    • Posts: 470
Reply #20 on: December 01, 2011, 07:56:18 AM
I can't say I've had any experience with photosensitive twin triodes but I have with gas regulators (OD3).
I worked on a buddies amp which had a string of OD3's in the power supply. The last pair were difficult to "strike" since the voltage was marginal at that point. A trick that worked with them was to use a camera's flash on them. It worked about 90% of the time (every once in a while, you had to do it twice).
When I mentioned this in another forum, it was suggested that this was the result of something called the "Compton Effect".
Well, I ain't no freakin physicist but maybe some of you guys are.
All I know is it worked.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compton_scattering

steve koto


Offline elcraigo

  • Full Member
  • ***
    • Posts: 107
Reply #21 on: December 01, 2011, 08:14:49 AM
kind of like kick starting a light-cycle

Craig Lewis (elcraigo is a nickname a good friend who grew up in Mexico gave me)


Offline Bolivar

  • Jr. Member
  • **
    • Posts: 21
Reply #22 on: December 01, 2011, 10:52:03 AM
My newest ebay purchase just arrived: 13 different 12au7 types. And I found another light sensitive one. A GE 5963 tube. The effect is quieter on this one, but still evident.

I can't be the the only one finding tubes like this. Unless I'm quite insane, of course. But the voices assure me that I'm not :)

Valtteri Nurmi

AMB Gamma2 DAC --> Crack --> Beyerdynamic DT880


Offline Grainger49

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 7175
Reply #23 on: December 01, 2011, 12:09:16 PM
I find those voices can't be trusted.  The music helps drown them out.



Offline elcraigo

  • Full Member
  • ***
    • Posts: 107
Reply #24 on: December 02, 2011, 10:51:38 AM
It suddenly pop into my head, I work with a physicist (and I talk to him everyday) --- a duh-huh moment.
So I bounced this discussion off him. First thought was some kind of gas. He thought, yes, a tube like a OD3 would do this, that's easy to understand.
But, a tube that is supposed to be a plain ol' vacuum, was puzzling. I gave him some info on getter materials.
Comment was: "strontium, caesium and phosphorus are reactive especially phosphorus".
It popped into my head seeing blab about tube testing, and 'no gasses' as a good thing.
So, the guess is; the tube that reacts to light, has a higher level of gas in it. Maybe that is a indication of a the getter not doing all it's job?


Craig Lewis (elcraigo is a nickname a good friend who grew up in Mexico gave me)


Offline 2wo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 1242
  • Test
Reply #25 on: December 02, 2011, 12:30:30 PM
Well, there are photomultiplier tubes that are designed to respond to light. Photons are just radiation a bit higher up the scale than electrons. doesn't seem that farfetched to me.

Have you tried placing an opaque shield in front of the LED?...John   

John Scanlon


Offline Bolivar

  • Jr. Member
  • **
    • Posts: 21
Reply #26 on: December 02, 2011, 01:51:14 PM
Yes I did try filtering with some opaque/semi-transparent material. Similar result as with a white sheet of paper. Lowered amplitude, but sound still there.
I also finished testing all my new(old) tubes. Out of the 16 different driver tube choices I own, 5 show some reaction to light.
And I went out and got some IR and UV leds. Strong reaction to UV, none to IR.

My next idea at mad science is to build a pulse width modulating circuit and feed an audio signal through it. Music from light perhaps?

Valtteri Nurmi

AMB Gamma2 DAC --> Crack --> Beyerdynamic DT880


Offline R.Mackey

  • Jr. Member
  • **
    • Posts: 13
Reply #27 on: December 02, 2011, 06:50:21 PM
OK -- going out on a limb here.  I have a Physics degree, but I haven't done any experiments with this particular apparatus at all.

It is plausible for light to have some audible effect, particularly if the amplification factor is high.  The relevant physical process is the Photoelectric Effect.  Very well known and characterized -- a single photon can excite and dislodge a single electron, which is then effectively free to move under the influence of electric fields. 

This effect will happen whether or not there is gas in the tube.  What you're thinking about with a gas-filled tube, as in a Geiger-Muller tube, is in fact something different -- in a Geiger counter, you are relying on the photon (or other radiation) to ionize an inert, otherwise insulating gas between plates at very high voltage, and when it does so it briefly creates a circuit path through the gas.  What happens here is not that.  Here the photon would strike the cathode directly and dislodge electrons to create a current, and once the electron is free it doesn't care if it's in a gas or in vacuum; vacuum is probably slightly better.

Every material has a "cutoff frequency," i.e., a minimum photon energy below which no electrons will be emitted.  Metals, in general, require fairly low energy -- light in the UV or even visible light are often enough to do it.  Light in the IR range, probably not.  The metal in vacuum tubes is also (a) heated, and (b) doped with metals to encourage electron liberation, both to encourage thermionic emission which is how tubes work in the first place.  I'm going to guess (don't know for sure) that these steps also make it easier for the photoelectric effect to take place.

If electrons are being shaken loose by the photoelectric effect, they will create a current, as the free electrons will then proceed directly to the anode.  Our tube systems are forward biased, creating an electric field which will always push them in that direction, so they really have nowhere else to go.  So there will be an actual signal.  How strong, I don't know, but it's not much of a stretch to think it could be audible.

Supposing this is at the heart of it, there are other factors that might amplify the effect.  Like amplifiers, for instance.  Or really sensitive speakers.  There could also be things like instability in an amplifier downstream that magnify the effect, but I can't see this upsetting any decent amplifier, particularly a zero-feedback design at a good operating point.  It's also possible that a photoelectric effect could create enough current for other effects, like microphonics, to become audible, particularly if those other effects on their own are not strong enough to start current flowing, but together they can.

If you want to try it further, here's a couple of experiments:

1.  Does the sound vary with light intensity?  Try holding the light closer and farther away.
2.  Is there a "color" below which there suddenly is no sound?  LEDs are pretty monochromatic but glass filters and such sometimes let weird frequencies through.
3.  If you create a narrow beam of light, does the effect change if you shine it on different parts of the tube?  Shining it on the anode should do nothing at all, shining it on the grid shouldn't have much effect, but shining on the cathode should have the greatest effect.
4.  (Advanced)  Does the effect change with heater current?

And finally,

5.  If you're an audio purist and worried about light screwing up your music (!), tubes with dark glass, reflective interior, or screens should be immune.  Try mechanical ways of blocking the light.

In my own system, I keep it all in a wooden cabinet, and I rig up LED power indicators always using deep, deep red just because I like them... but maybe they sound better, too...

Sounds like a fun experiment.  All I can tell you is that physically it's plausible.  I have no idea how strong the effect is under normal conditions, or whether it should be audible without going to great lengths to make it happen.

Ryan Mackey
Temporary system:  Pioneer DV-45A / Foreplay III / Outlaw 7100 / KEF Q-30 (heavily modified) / Hsu VTF-3 mk 2


Offline Paul Joppa

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 5768
Reply #28 on: December 02, 2011, 07:35:52 PM
I love this forum! I knew someone would come up with an answer. Armed with the terminology, I looked in Seely's "Electron tube circuits" and found the following on page 7:

"...For response over the entire visible region, 4000 to 8000 Angstroms, the work function of the photosensitive surface must be less than 1.54 volts."

On page 4, he give typical work functions of 1.0 volt for oxide cathodes, 2.63 volt for thoriated tungsten, and 4.52 volt for pure tungsten.

Paul Joppa


Offline R.Mackey

  • Jr. Member
  • **
    • Posts: 13
Reply #29 on: December 02, 2011, 07:47:56 PM
Veeeery interesting...

2.63 volts times a single electron, i.e., 2.63 electron-volts (or 2.63 eV) corresponds to a wavelength of 470 nm, or deep blue visible light.

1.0 eV, for the oxide types, is about 1250 nm, or near-infrared.

The formula in general is E = h c / L, where E is photon energy, h is Planck's constant, c is the speed of light, and L is wavelength.

Still sounding pretty plausible.

Ryan Mackey
Temporary system:  Pioneer DV-45A / Foreplay III / Outlaw 7100 / KEF Q-30 (heavily modified) / Hsu VTF-3 mk 2