High Pass (Best way get more power from my amp)

cmcdonnell · 4021

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Offline cmcdonnell

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on: December 06, 2011, 04:24:32 PM
I would like to take the low frequency load off my amp and let the subwoofer handle low frequencies.  Can I have my amp handle everything from 100hz up and not hurt the imaging, focus or balance?  Do I need to build an electronic crossover or is there a passive way to do this.  I have speakers that are not super efficient and I think the amp will perform better if it doesn't have to handle the very low frequencies.  Thanks for any suggestions you may have.

Chuck



Offline Paul Joppa

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Reply #1 on: December 07, 2011, 07:14:02 AM
The subwoofer's location is audible unless it is limited to very low frequencies. At higher crossover frequencies, it is not uncommon to use two subs, located adjacent to (or under) the main speakers. The critical frequency is subject to much debate and lack of consensus, but is often said to be in the range 70Hz to 100Hz. It probably depends a lot on the sub location and the room acoustics, making it hard to generalize.

Getting a theoretical crossover right is fairly complicated, fro two reasons. First, the main speaker will have its own bass rolloff, usually 12dB/octave (sealed box) or 24dB/octave (ported box). This is almost always close enough to the sub crossover that you cannot ignore the amplitude and phase effects; they must become part of the crossover. The second reason is room acoustics, which are far from flat below about 200Hz - and theoretical crossovers are almost always analyzed in terms of anechoic response.

For most of us, a more practical approach is to fiddle with the sub controls and location until we are either happy or tired of fussing with it. That's what I have in my house anyhow!

================

Back to the crossover itself. You can easily make a passive RC crossover of first order, just 6dB/octave. Combined with the speaker's own rolloff, this might do the job. I have a short article from the old VALVE magazine days on such a design. It is written as an adjustable two-way for the midband but you can extract enough information to change the crossover frequency. PM me with your email address and I'll send a copy. Incidentally, a simplified version of this could be built into a preamp such as the Foreplay.

You can make a second order (12dB/octave) passive RC, but the Q will be less than 0.5 and you must optimize it for the specific output impedance of the preamp and input impedance of the power amp.

For higher Qs and/or steeper slopes, Marchand offers passive LC crossover kits. I have no experience with these but the idea is sound and they have a decent reputation.

There are two capacitors inside a Bottlehead amp (except the Paramount 2A3 which is direct coupled). The parafeed capacitor will relieve the output transformer and speaker of deep bass but won't make much difference to the tubes. The driver to output coupling capacitor will relieve the output tube and transformer and speaker but not the driver. This will provide a small amount of increased headroom, but not much - maybe 3dB or a bit more. Many people do this but I don't consider it very satisfactory compared to a true external crossover.

Paul Joppa


Offline ssssly

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Reply #2 on: December 08, 2011, 11:22:26 AM
I use a Nakamichi active crossover on my system (Pmour w/ Frugal Horn MKIIIs, dual 15" subs) at 80hz.

Tried a few different active crossovers and found this one to be the most invisible.

Would love to try out a BH active crossover based on the Seduction or Eros.....PJ wink, wink...



Offline Grainger49

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Reply #3 on: December 08, 2011, 11:42:22 AM
ssssly, I didn't know Nakamichi made an active crossover.  I sold Nak back during the days of the 10000 and 700 (no numbers or letters after them).  Great stuff, great company.

Active crossovers are better, in my old and experienced opinion.  Why, you might ask?  Well, the components in a passive crossover don't exactly react the same way at all volume levels.  In a passive you have all kinds of controls that work for you there.  

My best sounding system, in that foggy memory, included an active crossover.  (it wasn't reliable so I don't listen to it now)
« Last Edit: December 08, 2011, 11:45:32 AM by Grainger49 »



Offline R.Mackey

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Reply #4 on: December 08, 2011, 05:19:23 PM
Two other off-the-shelf active crossover options are the Outlaw ICBM (out of production though a new one may be coming soon) and the Behringer DCX2496 (uses XLR in/outputs and may require adapters).  The ICBM is analogue solid state.  The DCX is all digital.

My last system incarnation was all active.  In my experience, the lightened load on main speakers by subtracting the LFE component made no difference in audible quality.  If anything, running the mains full range while "copying" LFE to the sub helped with room resonances and masked the sub location.  (For the record, I listen to a lot of demanding low frequency music.  Organ fiend.)  This will likely be true so long as your speaker impedance remains normal at low frequency.  Some don't.

Replacing the passive mid/tweet crossovers and bi-amping, on the other hand, was a significant improvement.  But I think this was due to two factors, one being the stock passive crossovers weren't all that great; the other, more generally applicable issue (I believe) is heating in the crossovers can change their performance enough to be audible.  There's also discussion of back-EMF and damping factor, but in my system and on my oscilloscope this problem didn't need fixing to begin with -- I think this problem is overblown.

In my system, long term, I'm retiring the active crossover, partly because my DCX proved to be unreliable, but mostly because I've decided I prefer the high-efficiency horn-loaded sound, and in those applications going active doesn't buy you as much.  Lower amp power == much lower power dissipation in the crossover == negligible heating.  Plus it's a lot simpler.

For you, if you go with passive crossovers to split out the LFE signal, it would be upstream of your amplifiers, so heating would be nil. 

My system, my ears, my opinions.  Hope it helps anyway.

Ryan Mackey
Temporary system:  Pioneer DV-45A / Foreplay III / Outlaw 7100 / KEF Q-30 (heavily modified) / Hsu VTF-3 mk 2


Offline ssssly

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Reply #5 on: December 09, 2011, 12:07:43 AM
ssssly, I didn't know Nakamichi made an active crossover.  I sold Nak back during the days of the 10000 and 700 (no numbers or letters after them).  Great stuff, great company.

Active crossovers are better, in my old and experienced opinion.  Why, you might ask?  Well, the components in a passive crossover don't exactly react the same way at all volume levels.  In a passive you have all kinds of controls that work for you there.  

My best sounding system, in that foggy memory, included an active crossover.  (it wasn't reliable so I don't listen to it now)

They don't any more. Can still find them for sale now and again though. I used to sell Nak as well. Bit after that though. Was right when they came out with the Soundspace series. Actually got the crossover I have now from the East Coast rep at the time. Was at one of the distribution warehouses in VA for a sales meeting, saw it on a shelf and asked about it. Said it had been there for years and gave it to me.



Offline Grainger49

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Reply #6 on: December 09, 2011, 12:14:43 AM
Nice guy.  Some reps were, others too hard nosed for me.