Stereomour or Paramount with Foreplay

[jtice]

Greetings everyone,
I've been having an increasingly persistent itch to build a 2A3 SET for awhile now, and I'd enjoy a winter project. I'm trying to decide between Stereomour and Paramount. I currently listen with a Scott 299b driving La Scalas with ALK Type A networks, and a SVS Sub. Rega Planet CD for the source. I've had this setup for several years and it sounds pretty good as is, especially considering that my total investment less than Paramount plus Foreplay III kits. I listen to jazz, blues, folk and classical but typically chamber or solo instrumentation, so probably don't need more than 3.5 watts. I have some soldering experience but have never built audio gear beyond rebuilding the tweets on my horns.

So the questions:
1) Do Paramounts necessarily need a preamp, or is it feasible to run a signal directly, perhaps add a gain control? I would probably do the preamp eventually but wondering if it's a requisite to even consider the Paramount kit? Is there some cheap, easy way to postpone building the preamp?

2) Paramount plus Foreplay III kits would double the investment I have in my system (cheap Scalas, restored), so I obviously like the price point of Stereomour. I have these price vs. quality doubts that drive me nuts... that the Stereomour might not be a significant enough upgrade from the 299b, and that I'd end up wishing I had bit the bullet for the higher end gear, and on the other hand, not wanting to pay for a subtle difference that perhaps my not-so-sensitive ears would not even discern. It's certainly convenient and economical that the Stereomour includes the preamp. As a first time builder I guess the simpler kit may be more appropriate but I really don't want to take that into consideration as I think I can follow directions. Ultimately what I want is a nice, significant improvement over the 299b, and if it can be done for $750 instead of $2050 all the better, unless the lower cost solution will just leave me wanting more... ah, circular thinking! My overall philosophy has always been to take a lot of pride in having a system that sounds better than its dollar value. I definitely don't want to spend thousands chasing the elusive last 1% that drives some folks to distraction. I realize this is not a yes/no question, I'd love to hear some discussion.

3) Maybe obvious, but I don't see how you get the signal from amp or preamp to the sub with these kits? The 299b has a center channel (combined) line out so it's easy. The sub will take either a line level or auxiliary speaker output, but I don't see either on these kits.

Thanks,
John

[vladimirwolfe]

John,

Others more knowledgeable than myself will chime in with good advice but I would suggest that you tell us where you are and see if you can find a bottlehead nearby who will let you listen to their stereomour/paramount/foreplayIII or possibly drop one into your system.

I'm guessing you're just beginning a long association with BH.

Doug

[Paul Joppa]

The Stereomour sound is pretty similar to Paramount 300B. Here are the main differences:

Stereomour has AC filaments, and thus a bit more hum. Paramount has about 10dB less hum, and 4-5dB more power as well, in the 300B form.

Paramount has a shunt-regulated driver, which we have found to be a real improvement. Both amps have current-source-loaded drivers, which I think is the bigger of the two technologies. YMMV.

Paramount in 2A3 form is direct coupled, which is again a real improvement. The best capacitors will resolve most of that problem, but they are quite costly.

Paramounts are monoblocks. Some people think the additional independence is a sonic advantage; I have not found it a big difference myself.

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The Paramount 300B needs 1.56 volts to drive it to clipping, and most CD players put out 2.0 volts full scale, so you do not need gain in the preamp - an external level control or passive preamp will be adequate. I believe you could put a volume control on each monoblock by drilling a suitable hole in the chassis plate, but I have not done this myself nor heard from anyone who has.

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The Foreplay has two sets of outputs, one of which is suitable for driving subs. A passive preamp could have the same arrangement. Most (but not all) subs will accept a stereo pair of inputs without converting the rest of the signal to mono.

Stereomour does not have a dedicated sub output. In most cases the speaker-level output is good enough, but for your speakers which are very sensitive the hum may be audible, unless you cross to the subs at a low frequency or with a steep slope. A couple other approaches are in the forum archives but I don't know which - if any - of them have been tried successfully. I can go into detail on the various approaches if you are interested. They would involve small modifications to the amp, the most problematical of which is dedicating one of the three inputs to become an output instead.

==========

For cost effectiveness, you have not mentioned the S.E.X. amp. In its present incarnation it has much the same sound as the other amps, especially with the C4S driver upgrade. (It now uses the same output transformer as the Stereomour.) It has just a little more distortion at full power. The output is quiet enough for headphones, and is certainly quiet enough to drive subs from the speaker output. The only limitations are that it has only one input, and puts out 2 watts per channel.

You may well find that 2 watts is plenty to drive La Scalas, especially if you are not into headbanging rock'n'roll, and you can flesh out the bass with a sub. Post the question on the SEX amp forum to get users experience; also other forums - the SEX amp has about the same power as most 45 amps; I call it the poor man's 45 because like the 45 and the EL84, the 6DN7 seems to be a particularly sweet sounding tube.

==========

Well, there's my take on these questions. Hope it helps!

[Grainger49]

One thing Paul is saying is that you don't need a whole lot of power.  Single Ended Triode (SET) sound is much sweeter than what you are listening to now.  It is more lifelike.  With your listening tastes I think you would be in Nirvana. 

I'd second considering the SEX at 2WPC.  I'd also say you could build the Stereomour as a 45 amp (1.75WPC).  The 45 is more lifelike than the 2A3.  The power of a 45 will most likely be more than enough for your speakers.  For instance, I have heard a Paramount built as a 45 with Altec Valencia speakers (very similar sensitivity to your speakers) in a very large room and it didn't run out of power.  I couldn't stay in the room with all the volume it was capable of.  Either way you can upgrade the SEX or Stereomour (transformers/chokes/caps) for a lot less than the Paramounts.  The Paramounts are pretty much tricked out as they are.  With the SEX or Stereomour you might not get quite the sound of the Paramounts but will get great SET sound. 

Your sub can be wired like mine.  The cables going to my amplifiers is Y-adapted with one cable from each channel to the amps and one to the sub.  (Picture below of the kind of Y-adapter I'm using, you need 2 for stereo) The sub sums the signal and has variable crossover and level control for matching.  Since you now match them with your amp you should be fine.

[jtice]

Thank you all for the responses. I would like to be able to listen to some of these options if anyone near me has them. I am in Blacksburg, Virginia. I would drive to Roanoke or other towns in southwest Va, or northern NC. I need to decide whether to consider this an experiment or major commitment. As an experiment the lower cost options would be appropriate. If I were certain that I would never look back then I'd probably favor the no compromise approach and build the high-end kits. I'm leaning toward jumping straight into the high-end kits and selling the two other amps to offset the cost. A chance to listen to one of the high-end systems would great if there are any nearby. What can you all tell me about the difficulty and skills needed? I have a good Fluke digital meter and am pretty comfortable with a soldering iron.

[Grainger49]

jtice,

I'm in Knoxville, how far is that? 

Otherwise post in the general folder asking for Bottleheads in your area.  That will get more attention than this post in the middle of your thread.  

[Paul Joppa]

Ping the Bottleneck group - here's the most recent post:

http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,2527.0.html

They have meetings with lots of comparative listening. Great bunch of guys - I was back east last June and able to attend one of their meetings; it was a lot of fun and we heard some really cool stuff. Many of them have Bottlehead gear of one sort or another, but they are into all kinds of DIY.

[Thoburn]

For what it is worth I will chime in that I choose to build a Stereomour. I have upgraded the caps to Jupiter HT and a Mullard driver tube. I still have the stock 2A3 tubes and will upgrade them eventually. I have Lowther DX4 drivers in Lowther Medallion cabinets which are reported to be 99 Db. My listening room is our living and dining room and is quite a big space. I am very happy with my choice. Either way, you can't go wrong with BH gear.

[RayP]

Ping the Bottleneck group - here's the most recent post:

http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,2527.0.html

They have meetings with lots of comparative listening. Great bunch of guys - I was back east last June and able to attend one of their meetings; it was a lot of fun and we heard some really cool stuff. Many of them have Bottlehead gear of one sort or another, but they are into all kinds of DIY.

We will be holding our speaker competition in April / May or thereabouts. Location will probably by Sterling, VA which I see is an over 4 hour drive for you.

http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,1917.0.html

If you can make it, you will be very welcome.

ray

[Paul Joppa]

...
If you can make it, you will be very welcome.

See, I told you it's a great bunch! (Deb is one of "the guys", by the way ... sexist language on my part, apologies for that; she's great  :^)

[Paully]

I am in Huntington, WV which looks to be 190 miles from you.  I have Paramounts in 300B, Eros, Foreplay II and III feeding some Altec speakers.  You would be welcome to bring yours if you like.  Anyway, one option if need it. 

[jtice]

RayP and Paully,
Thank you both both for offering opportunities to listen to some Bottlehead gear. Paully I may try and make a run up to Huntington before too long. As nice as it would be to bring my speakers, I no longer own a truck and just eyeballing it doesn't seem like a pair of LaScalas would be comfortable in the back seat of a sedan. I'd rather do it on the motorcycle anyway. I'll try and PM you about it. RayP I'll see how the timing works out for your meetup. Would love to hear all the different gear. Hopefully I will have a couple of BH kits already built by that time but I'm always up for listening to something new.
Thanks-
John

[Paully]

Let me know and we can work something out.  Are you going to go over the mountains on a motorcycle in winter?

[jtice]

Let me know and we can work something out.  Are you going to go over the mountains on a motorcycle in winter?

Yea, I use a heated jacket liner, so as long as it's dry and above freezing it's comfortable. It just depends on what the weather is like on a particular day.