Pro-Ject Debut III or Music Hall mmf 2.2LE

[lextek]

Thinking about taking the vinyl plunge.  I'm considering the two entry level tales listed in the title.  Thoughts?  I guess I don't have to ask aout a phono preamp......

[Noskipallwd]

Hey Bob, both are good entry level tables, most of the parts on the Music Hall tables are made by Project. I'm not sure but IIRC the Music Hall has a better stock cartridge. It's a crap shoot but both brands can suffer from motor hum, it can be eliminated fairly easily though. I bought a Project RM1.3 on a whim, quite surprised how good these reasonably priced tables can sound. A few folks around here have Music Hall tables and seem to be happy with them. They both have upgrade platters available and of course if you find you like the vinyl thing the first upgrade would always be the cart. Hope this helps.

Cheers,
Shawn

[HF9]

They both have upgrade platters available and of course if you find you like the vinyl thing the first upgrade would always be the cart. Hope this helps.

Good sage advice. I have a Pro-Ject and enjoy it, but it really came into its own with a Denon cart. As stated, both come from the same factory IIRC, so I'd imagine they'd be quite similar. You may also want to take a look at the Rega RP1 which is only $445 and has garnered some nice reviews. http://www.stereophile.com/content/rega-rp-1-record-player

[Noskipallwd]

Bryan is right the Rega RP1 is an excellent table although I have never been fond of the Rega sound. I used to sell them back in college, but for the life of me I can't define exactly what I don't like about their sound. I do like Rega tonearms, I made a custom armboard for my project RM1.3 and mounted a modified RB201 tonearm with an Ortofon 2M Blue cart. Excellent cart. For the money.

Cheers,
Shawn

[Dr. Toobz]

I own a Music Hall MMF 2.2 (the black version, not the red "2.2le" variant). For the money, it seems to be a decent performer. The stock cart (an Ortofon re-badged as Music Hall) isn't too bad - maybe a bit boring, and the stylus isn't as good as other carts I've owned at tracking the inner grooves of some LP's. About the worst thing I can say about the MMF 2.2 is that I do notice a bit of hum, despite the off-board power supply, and the interconnects are soldered to the tonearm, rather than having the tonearm terminate at a set of RCA jacks in the back of the table. There is also a good bit of rumble and groove-wall noise on some LP's compared to other tables I've owned, even at low-ish tracking weights (mine is set around 1.5g). But hey, it is a sub-$500 turntable! It is designed to be plug-and-play, and I'd venture to guess that many of the customers who buy this model will not be fiddling with different cartridges or wanting the ability to use their own interconnects to go into a preamp.

[Grainger49]

I'm going to throw in with Shawn.  A good table will serve you for quite a while.  About 6 months back I put my old Denon 103 C into a 1970s Dual 1219.  Dual built a good arm, fine bearings.  This match sounded wonderful! 

Seriously!  We have bantered about the importance of the cartridge versus arm and motor/platter/suspension.  I maintain that the cartridge generates your signal and the arm and table can only subtract from, cover up or hamper what is generated.  The Denon was a pretty expensive cartridge when I bought it.  It is reasonably priced today. 

I'm not touting the cartridge, only that an improved cartridge will bring you more.

[Noskipallwd]

I can't recall who said this to me, but I remember the discussion was about the cartridge turntable relationship. It was something like this, you can't improve the sound of a bad cartridge by installing it on a better table, but you can improve the sound of a bad table by installing a good cartridge. That is a little broad and general but you understand the point he was trying to make. Angelo, the hum you have on your table, have you determined whether it is mechanical or electrical in nature. My project, and others I have worked with including the Debut III were all mechanical. On the RM1.3 the motor is isolated but I found it was low level vibration making its way through the shelf it was on, up into the plinth, platter then tonearm resulting in hum. I isolated the motor from the shelf(cork and rubber), replaced the MDF platter with acrylic and that seemed to kill 98% of the audible hum. I am fairly sure that most of the hum problems with the projects and music hall tables goes back to the project motor design. Like I said it seems to be a crap shoot on whether you get a quiet or noisy motor. If you can get it below the surface noise of the vinyl then it's not a big deal.

Cheers,
Shawn

[Roger]

Save some more, and go for a VPI Classic. It is great!!!
Roger

[Grainger49]

Save some more, and go for a VPI Classic. It is great!!!
Roger

That is kind of a big step from $370, with cart (Needle Dr), to $2750, excluding cart (Elusive Disc).  

I don't think the Classic is in the running.

[Wanderer]

.... It was something like this, you can't improve the sound of a bad cartridge by installing it on a better table, but you can improve the sound of a bad table by installing a good cartridge.....

We are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

I worked at a shop that sold Yamaha way back "in the day" and Yamaha at the time changed the design of their turntables one season. In the older line that was on the way out was a decent intro table, the YP-B4. It was a basic belt drive auto function table but with a decent cartridge on it, say a AT/Signet 5E or Grado F-1, it sound very good even through the shops "high end" system (Mageplanar, Audio Research tubes).

I don't recall the equal turntable in the new P series but that table sounded like a mess with any cartridge we stuck in it. We salesmen renamed the new decks the "Pee series".

If the turntable can't reach a certain minimum performance level throwing a high zoot cartridge at it is just a waste. I rather listen to a budget cartridge, say an AT 95E or Grado Green, in a passable table then a higher end cartridge in a cheesy table/arm.   

Guess I lean toward the Linn view of good table and budget cartridge if you gotta.

I am not, however, knocking any of the tables mentioned here be they Rega, Pro-ject or vintage Dual. I am saying you are not going to turn an ION usb turntable into a giant killer by hanging a Koetsu in it.           

[Grainger49]

Kevin,  

The adage doesn't say a bad turntable won't get bad sound from a good cartridge.  The OP is not asking about a bad turntable either.  We are here to answer the OP's question and give advice.

Read my Reply #5 above.  IMHO, the most important thing is the part that generates the signal.  The arm and table do not generate signals.  Second most important is the arm which has has to adequately allow the cartridge to do the work.  The motor/platter/suspension must turn at an accurate, constant speed and avoid feedback.

[Wanderer]

You are are right, Grainger. Getting off the topic of the OPs question. I am good at that.

If I were looking in the budget stated here I would be looking on the used market personally.

The down side of buying used is the risk of getting a lemon, if it's a car or turntable.   

The up side is you may get more for your money and when/if you want to trade up you can get most of your money back.

Again not knocking the tables mentioned here but I have a real soft spot for ARs and older Thorens.   

The up side of new of course is the warranty and, one hopes, technical support from the manufacturer/distributer. 



     

[Thoburn]

I am very happy with my VPI Scout II. If I can ever save up enough money I will get a Lyra Delos cartridge. I agree with Granger. The cartridge makes the music. Everything else can only hope to not degrade it.

[Noskipallwd]

I believe that the point I was trying to get across was slightly misunderstood, that  is why I described the gentleman's statement as being a little general and broad. I was simply trying to convey my belief that the cartridge is the most critical piece of the vinyl playback chain,(actually the record itself is by far the most important IMHO, but that is a discussion for another thread.) By the way, the gentleman who spoke to me happened to be a engineer for Linn, I do remember that much, he was helping me decide what to mount on my LP12. I was trying to let the OP know that he would probably be hapy with an entry level table such as he asked about. Also, that improving said tables in the future would be easy and relatively inexpensive considering the cost of a cartridge. I do agree though, you can't make silk out of a sows ear.

Cheers,
Shawn

[Laudanum]

The entry level tables mentioned are capable performers.  Some complaints of platter wobble with the RP1 out of the box based on several reviews Ive read by actual buyers, not professional reviews.  Not sure if it's the platter or subplatter or a combination.  Anyway, Im sure all the entry level tables can potentailly have some qc problems out of the box.   Being new, should there be a problem, they can be exchanged.  Personally, If I were just getting my feet wet with vinyl, to see what it's about, I wouldnt buy an expensive table from the start.  I think the entry level tables are plenty good enough to let you know whether or not you will appreciate the format.  Both my tables are modest, sub 1K tables.  And MMF5 I got new over 10 years ago, and a Rotel RP900 with Rega arm I bought used fairly recently for the headphone system.  That MMF 5 is a nice, budget table, and real nice at the sub $500 price tag back then.  The arm isnt a world beater but very decent.  I havent had any issues with it.  That table uses an AC Synchronus motor and I havent had any hum issues.   Cant comment on hum with the new tables but I would imagine that some carts and set-ups (associated electronics, etc)  will be more prone than others as has always seemingly been the case with vinyl systems.

VPI is supposedly coming out with a lower priced entry level (for VPI) table in the near future.  But Im reading now that it will still be somewhere at or under $1500.  Still more than I would spend to get my feet wet but it has me a little curious.  Ive been interested in the Scout for a while but dont have the money to spend.  I think I would personally need to spend over 1K to appreciably better my modest tables beyond what cartridge upgrades can do.  And with my being happy with budget MM carts, including some of the very affordable vintage MM's, for me the diminishing returns on spending a lot for a table probably would come pretty quick. 

I think that if the table has a decent arm, decent rumble and wow numbers, accurate and stable speed etc, ... all within acceptable tolerances.  And is isolated, or can be isolated from vibration,  then it makes for a table that can allow you to atleast get a good taste of vinyl.  I think the entry level tables mentioned can do that.   Obviously they can be improved upon by spending more money for better tables or for upgrades to those tables that allow an upgrade path.  But they are a good starting point, and even an ending point for some.  And I agree that the most signifigant tweak is a good cart (that the listener enjoys) as long as the table is capable or better.  A bad sounding cart on a great table is still bad.

Just my 2 cents here.