Goldpoint attenuators vs. Sweetest whispers

[John Roman]

Hello,
Just FYI here. Recently replaced the sweetest whispers attenuators with Goldpoint Mini-V's in my extended Foreplay 3. I noticed a distinct difference in sound quality and was so dissatisfied that I've returned to using the SW's. I realize they don't offer the precision and # of steps but sonically they are much better. I'll eventually build some custom attenuators but for now I've just left the Goldpoint selector switch in place and have reinstalled the SW's attenuators. I've also replaced the padding resistors with some tantalum's and will re-evaluate soon.
John

[HF9]

If you have time John, could you explain the differences you've heard? I've always found SAs to be a big step up from pots like Alps Blue Velvet and Noble in terms of upper-end clarity. I haven't heard a Goldpoint with SMD resistors, but I have one with Vishay's in my SEX amp that sounds good, I also have compared a Chinese-made SA with Vishays against a DACT with SMDs and found the clarity of the DACT to be slightly better, but close. I'd imagine the quality of the switch may have had more to do with it than the difference in resistors. Many people swear by the short signal path of SMD parts, but I tend to wonder if it really matters.

I think the differences between various attenuators and pots definitely warrants more exploration, there are numerous pages that compare film capacitors to an incredible degree, but not the former. With pots like the RK-50, it would be an expensive proposition!

[4krow]

This is just the thing I was looking for. Lets just say I am too poor for the upgrade stuff right now, but wanted to know if there was a top notch volume control somewhat like the blue velvet, but having better performance. Any ideas?

[earwaxxer]

This is just the thing I was looking for. Lets just say I am too poor for the upgrade stuff right now, but wanted to know if there was a top notch volume control somewhat like the blue velvet, but having better performance. Any ideas?

Hey Greg - (or is it Bob?) - I use the TKD (Audio Note replacement). I like the the log taper. I need to CONTROL my volume. I guess thats a hang-up of mine. I have blue velvets in other amps/pre's. Never did an a/b comparison but I like the sound. My first hit was a more 'open' sound. Could be purely subjective. Parts connection has them.

http://www.partsconnexion.com/controls_pot_tkd.html
cheers - Eric

[Laudanum]

I use the Alps Blue in Crack but the TKD's are very popular.  Personally, I dont think I'd hear a difference (my far less than golden ears)  but others swear they do.  I'm sure I would hear a difference between different Stepped Attenuators but not so sure about CP element pots.   But,  if I were looking to upgrade the pot, I also prefer a pot not a stepped atten. for a headphone amp.  I would probably look to the TKD ($100, not the less expensive model).   I have wanted to try the PEC carbon at about $35 (in Crack).  I think Digikey has them but there have been reports that some are noisy and some dont track well at lower volume.  It's supposed to be a good pot if you dont get a lemon.  I havent read of anyone on the forum trying one.  I may end up being the guinea pig eventually.

Im not sure where I would look to upgrade the stepped attenuators in FPIII.  There are lots of reports of the Goldpoints not being sonic upgrades at all (SMD resistors).   I have even read a few (other forums) where GP's built with thru-hole resistors werent considered upgrades either.  I guess that could very well be resistor specific.   I remember, years ago, that the Bottlehead SW's were considered great sounding attenuators at a great price.  Seems that they are pretty hard to beat. Atleast without spending a good chunk of change.   The way I use the attenuators in FPIII, I dont need a pot and I have no itch to upgrade the SW's at all.   

[Jim R.]

Greg,

I think you'll like the PEC pots that Desmond mentioned -- I've had a number of pieces with these in them and they are quite good.  Yes, some of them can be a bit scratchy at the extreme low end, but you can pre-attenuate so that your usable range is further up the pot and then it won't be an issue at all.  They are also sealed, military duty so they will last a good long time.

As far as type of resistors vs. quality of switches, well, both are very important.  If you ever heard a stepped attenuator made with 25 or 50 PPM 1% or .1% resistors vs a 100 or 250 ppm resistor of 3% - 5%, assuming all other specs the same, the difference should be very easy to hear.

Take two identical switches, two sets of resistors -- one set your standard vishay rn-55 type and the other carbon comp and you'll see what I mean.  I picked these two as they are roughly about the same price range (inexpensive) but vastly different in terms of specifications and ultimately, sonics.

I do recommend the PEC pots though -- they are good sounding, maybe not the ultimate, but certainly good, and I'll be using one in one of my s.e.x. amps and probably another in Crack.  It's a good solid choice and an easy recommendation, if not top-tier.

-- Jim

[Paul Joppa]

One of the technical virtues of the PEC pots is the carbon-puck slider, rather than a metal spring. Supposedly the carbon-on-carbon contact is larger, quieter, and more reliable. We've used them (mono) in some very high-end gear with good results, though not as volume controls.

[John Roman]

Hello,
 The differences between the sweetest whispers and Goldpoint smd attenuators was to my older ears a distinct and immediate change in musicality. The GP's added a vail and seemed to remove a noticeable amount of sparkle in what I would describe as the high treble region.  They changed the tone to a dryer sound. To be fair my experience with attenuators is only with these two. That said I was surprised at the very noticeable difference. At $80 each I expected more. Also, I'm very familiar with my system and the current components and wiring have not changed in the last 100 hours of listening. I do think the GP's are a quality volume control but have to believe the smd's were a poor choice, for me.
John

[tuffy_puppy]

hi again,  not fully understanding these comments but beleiving they are mostly directed at the fp 3,  i would ask if anyone has an opinion as to the goldpoint attenuator's performance in the sex 2.1.  probably am placing this question in the wrong topic section but wanted to follow this whole line of thinking.  thank you forum,  don pettit

[4krow]

As always, I am grateful for the good advice here. I learned a lot, and I will try the pec since it is within my budget. I suspect it will fit easily as the original alps unit in my amp. I am mostly looking for more control as Eric?, that one crazy guy said. Sound of course is fundamentally important, but the cheap stepped attenuator that I am trying now has too big of steps to be useful for me. I even thought of having a stepped attenuator for the bigger steps, with a 'fine tuning' control for each step...I woke up in a sweat.

[Laudanum]

hi again,  not fully understanding these comments but beleiving they are mostly directed at the fp 3,  i would ask if anyone has an opinion as to the goldpoint attenuator's performance in the sex 2.1.  probably am placing this question in the wrong topic section but wanted to follow this whole line of thinking.  thank you forum,  don pettit

It's in the general forum so I just replied ... generally      It should be relevant for the gear that uses a "volume" control, whether it is a stepped attenuator or a pot.  Example ... Some put a stepped attenuator in the Crack amp in place of the pot and some replace the dual mono stepped attenuators in FPIII with a single, stereo volume pot.   To be specific, I was speaking of Crack where I personally prefer the finer control of a pot. 

By the way, after posting yesterday,  I read that member Lee Hankins (I think it was Lee) is using the PEC pot in Crack,  he may have some opinions specific to that. 

[4krow]

Well guys,  My PEC pot is on it's way. And I saw an explanation at GoldPoint that is really helpful in fine tuning your stepped attenuators. It just gives a list of resistors needed to decrease the incoming signal should you need it. The list is made specific to different value pots like 50K and 100K etc. I will be trying it in the future.

[Jim R.]

Greg,

That same approach to getting more usable steps out of the goldpoint can also be used with your PEC pot for more usable range and lowering the low end's tracking issues.

-- Jim

[Grainger49]

Well guys,  My PEC pot is on it's way. And I saw an explanation at GoldPoint that is really helpful in fine tuning your stepped attenuators. It just gives a list of resistors needed to decrease the incoming signal should you need it. The list is made specific to different value pots like 50K and 100K etc. I will be trying it in the future.

Here is a link to making custom stepped attenuators (SAs) from longtime Bottlehead VoltSecond:

http://www.siteswithstyle.com/VoltSecond/12_posistion_shunt/12_Position_Pure_Shunt.html

This link includes a number of attenuators.  Read through the page linked first. 

There is a spreadsheet (at 4.0) that you can download.  Click on the Excell tab "Discrete Shunt Mode."  You select the number of steps, dB per step, series resistor before the SA impedance and desired dB of minimum attenuation.

The S5 attenuator uses only 2 resistors in the signal path at a time.  But it is not a dual ladder that uses 2 resistors for each step.  A bit cheaper as engineers are like to do.  (VoltSecond and I are engineers)

Be sure to hit the link for the Secret Life Of Pots, explains a lot.

[John Roman]

Grainger, you are the best. Many thanks, John