To go fullrange or not to go fullrange?

[madbrayniak]

Hey guys, I havent posted on here in a long time as I have gone through a lot since I built my quickie...

However, now that I have my quickie built I am looking to build an amplifier(F5 or another Bottlehead amp) and some speakers.  I was leaning toward the speakers as they are going to be cheaper to do at first with the right drivers.  I was looking particularly at the Mark Audio CHR-70 or Alpair 7. 

That said, I cannot seem to get past the old thought of needing big drivers to reach the lower registers of the audio spectrum.  Seeing as how I have always gotten very straight forward answers on these forums I thought I would as it here.  So is it worth it  for full range drivers?

I would be using a PDR-8 subwoofer in my office to go with them but I just want to make sure it is a good way to go.

If I am happy with it I may even experiment with using full range drivers for Home theater purposes but I have been told that the drivers are a little delicate for that sort of use.  However, I do find it would be a fun experiment to see how a 3" FR driver crossed over to a 8" woofer would do in a 2 way system crossed pretty low.

[earwaxxer]

All I know is full range drivers are all the rage! I havent heard one so I can't comment.

As a diy project, I think I would be partial to specialty drivers for the bass and treble. If I wanted it to be truly full range (20hz - 20Khz) it would have to be a three way. I'm not real crazy about 3 ways, so I would probably use a subwoofer for the real low stuff (18hz - 50hz). The mains would be monitors with a ribbon tweeter/midrange, possible ribbon super tweeter, and a (or several) nice punchy 8in woofer(s).

I just had to wipe some drool off my shirt!

[Paul Birkeland]

Hey guys, I havent posted on here in a long time as I have gone through a lot since I built my quickie...

I was looking particularly at the Mark Audio CHR-70 or Alpair 7. 

That said, I cannot seem to get past the old thought of needing big drivers to reach the lower registers of the audio spectrum. 
Seeing as how I have always gotten very straight forward answers on these forums I thought I would as it here.  So is it worth it  for full range drivers?

I think you can throw a lot of money at speaker projects and not get very far (I have experience with this).  For $600, the Orca is an easy choice, and it is designed to work with a subwoofer, avoiding that one note bloat that some single driver speakers exhibit.

You can indeed get more bandwidth on the low end with bigger drivers, but there's no free lunch, and you'll find severe limitations with these drivers.

[Paul Joppa]

All speakers are multidimensional compromises. A lot depends on which dimension is most important to you, and people vary a great deal in that. So I encourage you - in fact, everyone - to find ways to listen to a variety of design approaches, as many as you can, for as long as you can.

[Paul Birkeland]

Hey PJ,

Have you been buy to check out Ed's Tang Band project?

[Paul Joppa]

Hey PJ,

Have you been buy to check out Ed's Tang Band project?

Yes, I've heard it a few times. My opinion hasn't changed - but as I say, it's my ears, not anyone else's! I like the clean and powerful bass, and the lower mids with no crossover anomalies (a big virtue of single drivers). I greatly appreciate the fairly flat upper mids and highs - most single drivers have unpleasant and highly audible peaks in the 2K-5K range. It makes the system listenable for longer periods. But the upper mids and treble are still less than perfectly clean. Clark's Orcas are among the very few single-driver systems which do not have these treble problems.

[madbrayniak]

Well however I go I am not going to be trying to design my own box for a full range as I think fullrange drivers are a complicated beast and special attention needs to be made to their implementation.  I will most likely try and use the Pensil designs or the Fonken designs from planet10-hifi.com

I have a subwoofer to cross it to already.  I chose mark audio drivers because they look to, even though less efficient, have a smoother response than many of the fostex drivers for about the same or a little less cost.

[tuffy_puppy]

audio nirvana.  common sense audio.  don

[Jim R.]

I'll second PJ's comment, "Clark's Orcas
are among the very few single-driver systems which do not have these treble problems."

After going through dozens of speakers of just about every type imaginable (sorry, just can't wrap my head around planars of any kind), the Orcas, sub and Nagas with subs have got me completely out of the speaker of the month club... permanently.  They suit *my* needs to a T, work well in my small spaces, and work so very well with low damping factor single ended amps.

And there is far, far more to it than the driver specs will ever tell you.

-- Jim

* -- the one exception to the planar rule is that I'm very much starting to like my HiFiMAN HE-400s, but they're headphones and don't have room interaction issues.

[Pfenning]

Listen to these guys, they know what they are talking about. Paul sums it up when he says "All speakers are multidimensional compromises. A lot depends on which dimension is most important to you, and people vary a great deal in that". I have a pair of Fostex FE206 on an open baffle. They yield very good results on less complex music like acoustic guitar, a piano, and a singer. On larger scale more complex music, they lose some ground. The fostex don't do a great a great job on bass, they need a subwoofer to fill them out. My main speakers are Pi Stage 4's. These fit my needs very good. They are based around Eminence pro audio drivers, and have the right amount of sweetness and slam. I'm a rock 'n' roll fan, sure, I listen to some classic country, blues, and jazz, there are greats in every genre. When I sit down and listen to Roger Waters The pro's and con's of hitch hiking, The Black Keys, AC/DC, Black Sabbath, or Nirvana, these deliver for me. Think about what your listening habits are and get in front of as many speakers as you can. My Pi's have been waiting for veneer for many years. I just can't bring myself to remove them from the system. Good luck.

Pfenning 

[Grainger49]

There is a thread about the Blumenstein Ultra Fi just below your thread (they keep moving) in the speaker folder:

http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,1943.135.html

That link should take you to the page where I entered the fray.  I got to listen to the Orcas on Saturday.  First impression as we removed them from the back of the Mini was "it's a toy!"  It is a tiny driver.  Well, it is not a toy but a very well constructed single driver speaker.

Being tiny, IMHO, is part of the secret to its sound.  It approaches the ultimate source, a point source.  The imaging and soundstage is precise.  It separates the instruments in the mix, they float in space.  

My previous experience with full range drivers was that they need a super tweeter to get any sparkle on top and a sub for "Thwack!"  So you end up with a three way speaker anyway.  Not in this case!  The highs were clean, clear and perfectly imaged.  The lowest notes still want for "Thwack!"  But you don't get everything for $600.  I consider $600 a very good price for the sound that you get.  

The bass with no sub is good, very detailed.  I didn't play with speaker placement I just plopped them where my speakers had been.  I played some Taiko drums (Google them) and as expected the chair didn't shake as it does with my sub and Triangle speakers. It takes a lot of moving air to reproduce the lowest notes of these drums.  Turning on my sub and turning it down a bit I got the chair to shake with the Orcas.  But I didn't take much time to try to integrate my sub with the Orcas.  My sub is set up for my speakers so I didn't want to mess with it.  I spent 98% of the time listening to the Orcas naked, nothing added.  That was very satisfying with everything we played!

I want a pair.  [I bought a pair]

[4krow]

I have spent the last 40+ years absolutely fascinated by speakers and the various designs. Even now, I would love to own at least 3-4 sets of speakers, each having their place for different effects, my present mood, etc. Only lately, in the last 2 years, have been working with an open baffle design that is a keeper for me. As stated above, it has it's strengths and weaknesses. For my room, and volume preference, it fulfills my expectations for soundstage and depth. I could go on and on about why I would still own a variety of speakers. I miss my old JBL 4343 for their sheer power. And I miss some old Speakerlab speakers just to sit back and listen. But the wonderment and curiosity will never leave me. Even when I feel that I've reached a pinnacle, another one is on the horizon. I love it....EVEN the mistakes.

[earwaxxer]

Hey Greg - I totally agree. I dont think any one speaker type would be the end all for me.

Every once in a while I come across an old album that I used to listen to at college with my speakerlabs, (12" woofer, 8" woofer, large midrange horn and high power handling horn tweeter) we had them hooked up to a 200wpc SAE. Just in terms of shear rock and roll power, you couldnt top those, at the time. I try to now see if I can replicate the sound experience that I remember some 35 yrs ago. In some ways I think what I am hearing now is better, and in some ways not so good. Of course my hearing was better then. I think if I were to design a speaker today I would go back to sealed woofer boxes with open ribbon tweeter/mids.

Maybe when I'm retired - I thought I was going to be semi retired but I got a job! I guess being poor was outweighed by keeping this thing going the way it has been going.... No complaints.

[Zimmer64]

Hi,

Wanted to add my 2 cents.

I have recently tried a number of FR projects. All of them without any x-overs, BSC etc. I started with a Fostex FX120 in a double bass reflex box, which work nice, when placed near the back wall. With certain music, they then to be to "forward" in sound. But I like the live like sound a lot.

Then I did Jordan's (now EAD) in a VTL cabinet. Very nice and balanced. Good base extension. Voices are fabulous. Very pleasant to listen to for hours. These are my favorite at the moment.

Then I tried open baffle with Wildburro Betsy. Stageing and imageing extremely good. Very enjoyable with classical music (which I hardly listen too...). But, they realy need an additional woofer. I took the baffles apart.... But I will try them with some Eminence Alpha 15", active X-over and bi-amp.

Overall, as others have said before me: Try to listen to as many designs as you can to figure out what you like. FR speakers compromise on each end of the frequency spectrum and also on max SPL. But I do also enjoy the x-over and thus distortion free mid range. When I need it to be loud, I switch to my large 2way floor standers :-)

Best and enjoy the journey

Mike

http://zimmer64.wordpress.com

[earwaxxer]

Hey Mike - that sound like a good plan. With DIY speakers you could have a couple pair, just switch out the cables.