$1500 coaxial cable?

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audiophileboss

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on: September 09, 2013, 01:31:24 PM
Is there a difference between a $300 coaxial cable and a $1500 one? Both same length. I am talking about an audible difference?



Offline corndog71

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Reply #1 on: September 09, 2013, 01:56:40 PM
Buy them and find out for yourself.  :)


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Rob


Offline Grainger49

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Reply #2 on: September 09, 2013, 02:18:01 PM
This is a hot key for some folks.  I know that there is a sonic difference between $3 cables and $300 cables.  I wouldn't know anything about $1500 cables.  I don't own any, probably never will. 



audiophileboss

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Reply #3 on: September 09, 2013, 02:30:01 PM
Anyone else with the experience of owning one? But guys thanks for your reply



Offline adamct

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Reply #4 on: September 09, 2013, 03:25:07 PM
I don't want to get into whether there are audible differences between high-end audio cables (I don't have experience with cables of that caliber, so can't speak from first-hand experience). But it does raise something I have often wondered about. The market for $1,500 cables must be very, very small. While I'm sure each individual cable is very profitable, the total annual profit to the manufacturer must be very small in terms of the overall cable market. Moreover, one or both of two things must be true: (1) the manufacturer is not making the raw cable itself and/or (2) the raw cable is not unique to the $1,500 cable. It simply wouldn't be profitable to produce high-end, unique raw cable in runs of...what? 200ft? 500ft?

That means that the raw cable is almost certainly being used in other products. And those other products are likely to be significantly cheaper. So what accounts for the premium in the $1,500 cable? Presumably it is the hand assembly and overall build quality. I'm not saying those things don't contribute to the signal-carrying capability, but I wonder what portion of the overall signal-carrying ability they represent vs. the conductor, which must be the most expensive part of it.

Moreover, the R&D budget for a $1,500 cable must be tiny to non-existent. So how did the manufacturer determine that the $1,500 cable is the optimum design? Did they just pile premium components into it and charge more? I don't assume that more expensive raw materials necessarily perform better. Did they test the cable? Do they have any data to show that it performs better? We're talking about a digital cable: presumably you could feed a signal in, then check to make sure that the signal on the other side is identical, then show how other cables introduce a greater number of errors, or result in higher jitter or whatever. Companies like Canare or Belden or Mogami have real R&D programs and budgets. They have high-tech manufacturing facilities with tight tolerances. Does that mean that someone else can't produce a hand-crafted product that performs better? Of course not. But the odds are against it.

I don't mean to pick on cables in particular here. This is generally true of any product where:

- product cost is high
- quantities are low
- hand-crafted product is competing against a product made in a modern, automated, high-end manufacturing environment (not something made by injecting plastic into a mold, or stamping metal sheets)
- R&D is key
- a small-time manufacturer couldn't possibly produce all of the components themselves

As several people here know, I have had my headphones recabled at considerable cost with custom cables. But I don't have any illusions that the guy who makes those cables is making his own wire, weaving his own cable sleeving, making his own connectors, etc. He is buying various, common components and assembling them with care. The cost of the cables reflects his cost for the raw materials, and his skilled labor in assembling them (not to mention his advice and experience during the cable design process). It does NOT reflect the value of some magical incantation that imbues his cables with the sonic benefits of eye of newt. And to take it a step further, I have no reason to believe that when soldering the wire to the connectors, he does a better job doing this by hand than, say, Sennheiser did when manufacturing the stock HD800 cable in their automated facilities.

Again, this is NOT about cables. My point is just that as the cost of a product gets higher and volumes get lower, it seems to me that from a practical perspective, it actually gets HARDER, not easier, to produce a better product. Think about this: if I offered to pay you $1,000,000 for a handmade, custom-designed hard drive, could you build something better than what I can buy at Best Buy for $100?

No need to respond to this post. Nothing in here says that any specific $1,500 cable cannot perform better than another specific $300 cable. You would have to test those specific cables to see if there was a difference in performance, and as I don't even know what cables you are talking about, I obviously haven't done that. I'm just thinking out loud here...



Offline earwaxxer

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Reply #5 on: September 09, 2013, 03:43:58 PM
My 2 cents... I would NOT spend that much on wire. Diminishing returns. If that brand has some good shit to sell, then they should have an AFFORDABLE example to try. Go from there... I admit. I am 'guilty' of indulging in the ultra high end boutique. But, I did it at the 'entry level'. What I can say is... its real. Challenge them. Only buy the affordable stuff.....

Eric
Emotiva XPA-2, Magnepan MMG (mod), Quickie (mod), JRiver, Wyrd4sound uLink, Schiit Gungnir, JPS Digital power cord, MIT power cord, JPS Labs ultraconductor wire throughout, HSU sub. powered by Crown.


Offline corndog71

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Reply #6 on: September 09, 2013, 04:57:14 PM
All I have to say is before I knew there was a controversy about it, I tried better cables and easily heard a difference.

That being said, I'm not rich.  The most I've ever spent on a cable was around $260 and that was for something like 16' of Kimber 8TC.  I used most of it for a stereo pair of speaker cables and the rest turned into interconnects and hook-up wire for various projects over the last 10 years.

I've heard Kimber's Select cables and while they were in a system that probably exceeded $50K, the combination sounded pretty damn good.  I've also heard a $50K system with Kimber's 4TC and it still sounded spooky-good. 

I once had a car with a stereo in it that exceeded the value of the car.  I started with Kimber 4PR between a 4x50 watt amp and infinity and Boston acoustic speakers.  It was marginally better than the shitty stock wiring the car came with.  Then i ripped it all out and tried 4TC.  The clarity was undeniable to everyone that listened to it.  Over the years I found the 4VS is around 90% as good as the TC cables for half the price.  8TC is pretty awesome too and slightly warmer than the 4TC but at twice the price.  I want to try the 12TC but $31/ft makes me uncomfortable.  Maybe come bonus time.

I have a lot more to say about this topic but have other pressing concerns.


The world was made for those not cursed with self-awareness.

Rob


Offline earwaxxer

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Reply #7 on: September 09, 2013, 05:08:19 PM
Hey Rob, that Kimber 8TC/4TC level is what I'm talking about. "Affordable" boutique. All these companies know that there are MANY more of us out there looking for a reasonable, high performing piece of wire, than those with the big wallets. With that said... I can pitch the JPS Labs ultaconductor 2 series. IMO, a good value. Nothing fancy. Ziplock bag and the whole deal. No white gloves. What I have noticed with the JPS stuff is "coherence". Its all together and natural. YMMV.

Eric
Emotiva XPA-2, Magnepan MMG (mod), Quickie (mod), JRiver, Wyrd4sound uLink, Schiit Gungnir, JPS Digital power cord, MIT power cord, JPS Labs ultraconductor wire throughout, HSU sub. powered by Crown.


Offline caffeinator

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Reply #8 on: September 09, 2013, 05:08:32 PM
I am a skeptic - let's get that out of the way right off the bat.

That being said, and to add to that, I'm a firm believer in the "expectation effect."  In other words, why the same wine in a $25 bottle tastes better than the same wine in a $5 bottle and label.

IoW, of course a $1,500 coax cable sounds betters...after all, it has to, doesn't it?  Why else would it cost $1,500?

My suggestion is to graduate up slowly...try things one at a time...make each prove their merit and decide for yourself.  My tin ear has a much lower gradient in terms of dollar per quantum of improvement...yours may be different, though...



Offline earwaxxer

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Reply #9 on: September 09, 2013, 05:14:18 PM
Hey caffeinator - I can SO relate! I was a TOTAL wire agnostic for many years. Its nuts! But, my friend, unfortunately, its real. I wish it wasn't. With that said, IMO, there are more COST EFFECTIVE ways to improve your sound than spending a ton on wire. Again, thats my opinion. I have not heard the multi $K wire. Never will.

Eric
Emotiva XPA-2, Magnepan MMG (mod), Quickie (mod), JRiver, Wyrd4sound uLink, Schiit Gungnir, JPS Digital power cord, MIT power cord, JPS Labs ultraconductor wire throughout, HSU sub. powered by Crown.


Offline Zimmer64

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Reply #10 on: September 09, 2013, 09:30:41 PM
I think there is a lot of hype about cables and the law of diminishing returns kick in pretty early. I also believe that most companies just

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audiophileboss

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Reply #11 on: September 10, 2013, 12:30:38 AM
Ok, i forgot to mention I only need a meter run. Will that cable quality differ at that length?



w0lfd0g

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Reply #12 on: September 10, 2013, 03:08:35 AM
Is there a difference between a $300 coaxial cable and a $1500 one? Both same length. I am talking about an audible difference?

Which $1500 cable and which $300 cable?  I've got a metre of cable you can have for $1500 if you want.



Offline adamct

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Reply #13 on: September 10, 2013, 04:06:21 AM
Michael,

Thanks for those suggestions and links. Can you provide a link to the 4mm medical-certified bananas you use?

I'm personally a fan of Blue Jeans Cable.

Click here for a description of their test of various cables for interconnect use. (Note that since that test was conducted, they found an even better cable, LC-1, which they now recommend. The test is still an educational read, however.

Click here for their RCA interconnects (and related discussion of technical requirements and performance considerations).
Click here for their speaker cables (and related discussion).
Click here for their digital coax and toslink cables (and related discussion).

FWIW, the last time I spoke to them, they didn't see any value in creating custom USB cables. They sell USB cables, but they are just cheap cables they buy off-the-shelf from China. Their 6-foot USB 2.0 cable costs....a whopping $2. No, it isn't any better than any other USB cable that came packaged with your printer. They sell them as a convenience item for their customers, not because they think they perform better.

Best regards,
Adam



Offline corndog71

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Reply #14 on: September 10, 2013, 04:11:51 AM
Ok, i forgot to mention I only need a meter run. Will that cable quality differ at that length?

I have so many questions.

What cables are you currently using?

What brands are you asking about?

Where are you planning to use this cable?

Are you seriously considering buying a $1500 cable or just curious about them?


Somethings to consider:

Many "high-end" cables are sold through dealers who get a nice cut of the price and provide a more reliable conduit to the manufacturer.

While some cables are clearly made by someone else (Blue Jeans cables = Belden) some are not.

While there are some standards for what and how we all hear things, not everyone has the same hearing ability.  Put another way, everyone has a different amount of damage done to their hearing.  It's unrealistic to expect everyone to hear the same way. 

Bias for and against the audible differences of cables exist.  There are dedicated camps for each side.  This is why I always say forget what others think, keep an open mind, and try and listen yourself.  Some dealers will loan you an expensive cable to try before buying.


The world was made for those not cursed with self-awareness.

Rob